The Future of Adventism


(Steve Mga) #61

Hi –
harrpa said, thing of the PAST: celebrity evangelists going city to city".
The newest thing is Doug or Boonstra making DVD’s to be shown on THE SAME
NIGHTS, SAME WEEK around the Nation.
They even HAVE Banners made, and supplied to the churches, with the same
dates, times on them to be put out on the lawn in front of the churches.
SAME ACTIVITY, just doing in a different way.

I don’t know if other churches have had much success with it. But 99% of the those
attending ours were just regular members. Maybe a couple of “visitors”. But nothing
resulted from their visiting.

Apparently Pastor Findley has had MUCH MORE Success in Africa with his Televised
multiple church series of Evangelism recently – Thousands baptized.


#62

“Our survey says”…

People are not usually focused on Jesus or church stuff


#63

HEY…
Since the latest SS lesson is not posted…

What is the difference between giving glory to God and worshipping God?


(Frankmer7) #64

Maybe because Galatians and Ephesians destroy denominationalism and “favored nation” status?

Frank


(Shane Smith) #65

Frank, what you say is spot on, I agree wholeheartedly. We look solely to the consummation of the kingdom at Christ’s second coming and don’t even acknowledge what scholars like George Eldon Ladd and Herman Ridderboss showed clearly, that Jesus central message, and the mystery of the kingdom, was that the kingdom had already come in his person.
And our “end-time puzzle piece prophetic scenario is [definitely] an aberration”, and is killing what could be a very powerful message we should share, which is totally different to many modern mega church aberrations, which use a cloak of Christianity thrown over what is basically an entertainment show. They are as shallow as shallow can be. These charlatan mega-church leaders who rake in massive financial hoards and live lives of extravagant indulgence, while proclaiming to be following in the footsteps of our self-effacing Lord (who couldn’t boast a pillow to lay his head on), are not to be our examples. We need to cut to the authentic message of the Bible.

The atheist Niall Ferguson hit it on the head when he said, “…there is a sense in which many of the most successful sects today flourish precisely because they have developed a kind of consumer Christianity that verges on Wal-Mart worship. It is not only easy to drive to and entertaining to watch – not unlike a trip to the multiplex cinema, with soft drinks or Starbucks served on the premises. It also makes remarkably few demands on believers. On the contrary, they get to make demands on God, so that prayer often consists of an extended series of requests for the deity to solve personal problems.” Civilisation 5361

Many consumer Christianity aberrations preach a message which is not the authentic gospel, but rather a mixture of psychological positivism, telling people only the good things they want to hear, and preaching a “prosperity gospel”, where believers are promised a comfortable material life if they conform to the wishes of the leader. Preachers take a text and instead of mining “from” the text the blessed message it was originally meant to covey, they drag in any and every bit of psychological rubbish they want, to manipulate their hearers in a strange direction.

Certainly we need to re-invent many things in our century and half old church, but not abandon the huge Protestant Reformation gains we made by accepting our most important founder’s teachings (I am referring to Joseph Bates), of the continuing validity of the Sabbath, the health message, the abolition of slavery, the separation of church and state, and I am not sure who introduced the most important teaching of conditional immortality? We certainly do need to re-visit our increasingly hierarchical governance structure, especially in an electronic age. We need to re-invent our worship service (but please keep the brilliant Sabbath-school concept), by making it more inclusive, friendly, socially sharing, and possibly incorporate more singing and praising/ participation.

We also need to accept the truth that Ellen White had many flaws, and that her “lesser light” needs to be wound down to a mere glimmer of it’s former self. I know this last wish will be the most controversial point I will make, but unless we accept the truth about Ellen White we will NEVER move on to a clearer biblical message.

It seems I have now almost written an article, so I will end, and perhaps develop my thoughts to that end.


(Shane Smith) #66

“The end time message according to the NT is the gospel…the announcement of the kingdom of God in Jesus Christ. His death and resurrection revealed God’s victory over all the evil powers, including death itself. It revealed that God had broken into this world in a decisive way that would never be defeated, that the new creation had already begun, and would be culminated with Jesus’s return.

The Adventist end-time puzzle piece prophetic scenario is an aberration. It deflects attention from the gospel, is ostensibly centered on law/sabbath and Adventist uniqueness, and is built on one method of interpreting apocalyptic texts that leads to these curious interpretive results. It ends up actually becoming an impediment to the gospel.” Frank Merendino

Frank, what you say is spot on, I agree wholeheartedly. We look solely to the consummation of the kingdom at Christ’s second coming and don’t even acknowledge what scholars like George Eldon Ladd and Herman Ridderboss showed clearly, that Jesus central message, and the mystery of the kingdom, was that the kingdom had already come in his person.

And our “end-time puzzle piece prophetic scenario is [definitely] an aberration”, and is killing what could be a very powerful message we should share, which is totally different to many modern mega church aberrations, which use a cloak of Christianity thrown over what is basically an entertainment show. They are as shallow as shallow can be. These charlatan mega-church leaders who rake in massive financial hoards and live lives of extravagant indulgence, while proclaiming to be following in the footsteps of our self-effacing Lord (who couldn’t boast a pillow to lay his head on), are not to be our examples. We need to cut to the authentic message of the Bible.

The atheist Niall Ferguson hit it on the head when he said, "…there is a sense in which many of the most successful sects today flourish precisely because they have developed a kind of consumer Christianity that verges on Wal-Mart worship. It is not only easy to drive to and entertaining to watch – not unlike a trip to the multiplex cinema, with soft drinks or Starbucks served on the premises. It also makes remarkably few demands on believers. On the contrary, they get to make demands on God, so that prayer often consists of an extended series of requests for the deity to solve personal problems." Civilisation 5361

Many consumer Christianity aberrations preach a message which is not the authentic gospel, but rather a mixture of psychological positivism, telling people only the good things they want to hear, and preaching a "prosperity gospel", where believers are promised a comfortable material life if they conform to the wishes of the leader. Preachers take a text and instead of mining "from" the text the blessed message it was originally meant to covey, they drag in any and every bit of psychological rubbish they want, to manipulate their hearers in a strange direction.

Certainly we need to re-invent many things in our century and half old church, but not abandon the huge Protestant Reformation gains we made by accepting our most important founder’s teachings (I am referring to Joseph Bates), of the continuing validity of the Sabbath, the health message, the abolition of slavery, the separation of church and state, and I am not sure who introduced the most important teaching of conditional immortality? We certainly do need to re-visit our increasingly hierarchical governance structure, especially in an electronic age. We need to re-invent our worship service (but please keep the brilliant Sabbath-school concept), by making it more inclusive, friendly, socially sharing, and possibly incorporate more singing and praising/ participation.

We also need to accept the truth that Ellen White had many flaws, and that her “lesser light” needs to be wound down to a mere glimmer of it’s former self. I know this last wish will be the most controversial point I will make, but unless we accept the truth about Ellen White we will NEVER move on to a clearer biblical message.


#67

That has been the tendency here too, and actually to the point where congregations lost faith in “Prophecy seminar tactics” since we haven’t had one for over several years now.


#68

How’s the WX in Ukraine? I hope you are safe in the mids of political turmoil there, since there were a lot of incidents of political imprisonment of local church leaders. I know it’s safer up North, but keep it safe (granted that you are actually in Kiev :slight_smile: )


#69

EGW writes in Early Writings p. 42:
Then I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out with all their importance, and for God’s people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches.

Contrast this to Hebrews 6:19.20:
We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. (ESV)

Did Jesus not get into the Most Holy until 1844 as EGW claims she was shown or has he been behind the veil as the writer of Hebrews informs us?

Are modern readers familiar with what the term “the shut door” meant at the time EGW used it?
It’s not something we would be proud of today.


(Steve Mga) #70

Revelation 12:17 – ….have the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 19:10 – ….testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

QUESTION – WHAT is NEW TESTAMENT “Prophecy”??
According to Paul in 1Corinthians 14 it is this.
++ NOT telling the FUTURE
++ IT IS: edifying, exhorting, comforting, counseling

DOES Paul’s definition of Prophecy NOT MATCH Revelation 19:10 the WAY
we SDA’s interpret “prophecy”.
DOES Revelation 12:17 mean “OF Jesus” or “ABOUT Jesus”?

I would recommend taking 40 minutes to WATCH Andrew Farley [youtube] and
his topic “The Gift of Tongues” where he discusses 1 Corinthians 13 AND 14.


(Jeremy S.) #71

You know what I’m kind of tired of? The ageism exhibited in almost every advenist discussion forum. As if when a human being gets older their value and/or worth is somehow diminished. I get that we need to be looking at whats going on in the world and how we can grow our younger members. But I happen to believe we can do that without mocking those who have been in the church longest. Ok.


(Steve Mga) #72

Jeremy –
THAT was the point of my comment.
As you stated – We need to be looking at ….how we can grow our younger members."
Younger Members are NOT staying in the Church Body. Not staying to keep it alive,
to keep it Vibrant, to keep it Relative to Gospel Evangelism.

Back in 2000, Roger Dudley published a book printed by Review and Herald Publishing
with the Title – “Why Our Teenagers Leave The Church.” Has 221 pages.
All his work in gathering data, presenting the data does NOT SEEM to have made any
difference in what is happening AT Church, or Within the “Church”.
It was a labor of Love over a 10-year period of research talking to Teens-Young Adults
and recording their answers to his questions.
I was just saying, Perhaps our Local Churches are NOT meeting the SOUL Needs of
our Teens–Young Adults so they see NO Value in sticking around going through the Rituals.


(Angus McPhee) #73

Steve,
I wonder if this might contribute positively, of course, to the discussion?

endnote #59

Angus


(Angus McPhee) #74

Romey,
You might like to have a read of this.

Regards.

Angus


(Angus McPhee) #75

Ray

Yes. While that’s a very important part of it, I find rereading the archives refreshing and a corrective. I was hoping by my comment to encourage people to do that and et us know what they’ve noticed.


(milton hook) #76

Angus, I like your explanation of “the rest of her seed.”
We are on the same wavelength.


(Cfowler) #77

Question…

I think the woman is Israel. What do you two think? Or did I miss your thought on this? Thanks.

@Angus


(Ray Smith) #78

I think you make a very valid point here and Andrew Farley’s presentation is clear. Thanks for the link.

The SDA church is still using the gift of prophecy as history in advance, not edification. The church is still date setting, not as a calendar date, but insisting that this is the final generation. This despite the fact that the last thing Christ ever said before his ascension is that it is not for us to know the times or epochs (NASB) that the Father has set by His authority.

It always intrigues me that Revelation 19:10 is actually a rebuke to the Apostle John for falling down to worship the angel whereas it’s Jesus who inspires prophecy, however we define it.

For all intents and purposes, the Lord’s return is not far off for those of us pushing 80 or beyond. This is our final generation - in fact our only generation in the course of history. One day there will be a final generation. Whether or not we are now living in the final generation for this world is God’s business.

Ours while we wait is to love the way Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. I like this -


(Shane Smith) #79

Leandro, what most people will not admit is that Ellen White’s views and theology changed slowly over her lifetime, and that her writings were simply added to over time, without deleting very much of the earlier material (except for some statements that were absolutely contradictory to later, more mature and enlightened views). From a physical point of view, there were no doors between the different compartments of the sanctuary anyway. Why do we keep quoting this stuff anyway? Why not just stick to scripture! We do claim to be Protestants, don’t we?


(Shane Smith) #80

I am not sure who this is hiding behind your nickname? :slight_smile: My CX is going really well, but Ukraine is freezing up for the winter so I ran away. It’s reasonably safe in Kiev. Mr Putin simply wants a little fire smouldering down in the corner of Ukraine to prevent them from joining NATO and to try to dissuade them from becoming European and having a better life. If they had a better life it would make all Russians envious, and that could cause trouble at home for him.