The Holy Spirit Blows Where He/She Wishes and Calls Whom He/She Calls


(George Tichy) #82

And what amazes me is seeing so many (male) “remnant” Christians defending misogyny so fiercely. I wonder what part of Christ’s teachings they have been reading the most… :thinking: :roll_eyes:
@timteichman


#83

RC scholar Christopher West offers this:“It must be stated emphatically — if Genesis did not make it obvious enough — that male domination violates God’s plan and is the specific result of sin.”


(Tim Teichman) #84

I didn’t state that. And I don’t.

People think all kinds of things. That does not mean their opinions are correct. In the case of WO and the bible, they are not correct. I doesn’t teach that. It’s not there.

You continue to insist that you can discern my attitude, what is going on inside my head, even after I’ve explicitly noted that you can’t and you have it wrong.

I suppose that is right in line with your continued insistence that there is no difference between ordination and commissioning - though they are two different things, as many here have correctly pointed out to you. All you have to do to find the official differences is review the church manual.


(Tim Teichman) #85

The third world didn’t vote anything in. This has been pointed out many times. The GC in session voted “no” overall to a new thing, which means nothing changed. It was a non-event.

Well it would be nice if you’d stop asserting things that you can’t know. You can’t know, for example, that I cannot get into the shoes of another. You also can’t really know why individuals vote one way or the other - unless you have asked them in a scientific way designed to get you the actual reasons.

How about you start with all of us here and show us what that looks like? I don’t remember bringing up “the third world” or the WO vote in this thread. I think it is you who have done that - both brought them up and commented on what I think about them - which again you cannot know (for one thing you have not asked.)


(Tim Teichman) #86

LOL! You’ll never get a valid answer!


(George Tichy) #87

If Allen believes that, he should ask to have his ordination revoked and replaced by commissioning. You know, just to show solidarity to women and affirm his belief… :wink:


#88

Or, in case a Church Manual isn’t handy, here’s another source (formerly a public file on the NAD website): FAQs on Commissioned Ministers: Questions and Answers


(Tim Teichman) #89

That’s the thing that makes me somewhat exasperated. It does not actually seem possible that he thinks they are the same - since they’re not - and he is I gather pastor himself and so should be fully versed on the church handbook. His insistence that they are the same seems disingenuous - as if baiting everyone here with the idea is a game of sorts. I don’t understand the motivation behind such behavior.


(Steve Mga) #90

Tim, Mel –
the FAQ’s on Commissioned Ministers.
A Commissioned Minister is barely above the role of an Elder in a local
SDA church.
There is a list of important limitations on a Commissioned Minister.
Their “hands are tied” pretty much from doing important pastoral activities.


(Elmer Cupino) #91

It is a sad state of affair when a denomination allow their preachers to preach what they cannot practice. Would you consult with a psychiatrist regarding an appendectomy?


(Allen Shepherd) #92

That is that they are bigots and misogynists. Here is your statement:

It’s post 71 on this thread. This statement is rabid ad hominem through and through.

I have asserted that the church has chosen not to ordain women. But I am told by many that it has. I have no knowledge of such a vote or decision. Tim says the vote in 2015 was a non-event, things are the same. I believe “the same” was no WO. Show where I am wrong on this.

The Conference men mentioned in this article said, according to the author: “The differences are inconsequential.” I am only quoting them. The reference that meldouglas gives says there are three things they cannot do, ordain elders, join churches or be presidents. But my understanding is that accommodation can and have been made for these except the president one. In practice the credentials are the same save for that, but even there, the SEC conference has voted a women president who is serving as we speak, though not recognized by the GC. So, practice is somewhat different than what the Manuel states, a thing I am aware of and why I have quoted the Conference men’s statement in this article.


(Allen Shepherd) #93

It’s as if you did not even read my post! And instead of answering my arguments, you add another ad hominem. How about a discussion at least some of the others do that?


(Elmer Cupino) #94

Allen, I read your post. More than once just to digest the main point buried underneath it. I find it hard to accept the truth but so be it…

I never thought in a million years my challenge would draw a positive response.


(George Tichy) #95

You know, I spent my life (successfully) figuring out people’s motivation behind their behavior. But in cases like this, when public denial* is affirmed, and persistently re-affirmed despite the facts being against it… this one I can’t figure out. Maybe there is a different motivation when talking to people who they consider “fools.” Who knows?

*I can’t believe that in the back of their mind they actually believe on those things that they state in public, and even fight for them. But, again, the brain can play weird tricks on us. @elmer_cupino’s input on this issue would be extremely valuable and educational to all of us.


(George Tichy) #96

Again? Allen, what are you trying to do, convince the @webed that everyone who disagrees with you is attacking you on a personal basis? There had been not one ad hominem at you that I could see, but you keep complaining about it over and over again. Are you paranoid now, thinking, “all fools are after me now?”

Please, don’t write anything disagreeing with me…, I may consider it ad hominem… :roll_eyes:


(Elmer Cupino) #97

Two natural phenomenons commonly needed to rule out psychosis are hypnopompic, the state of consciousness being aware while the body falls asleep and hypnagogic when the state of consciousness is still asleep while the body is awake. The mind can play havoc during these states with mental inconsistencies where dreams can be misunderstood as facts.


(Tim Teichman) #98

Referring to…

Oh, that. I wasn’t referring to the 3rd world. I was referring to Adventist men employed in the church structure. Sorry that was confusing. Even still, I do not see them as “utterly black”. The concept never crossed my mind.

And it’s not Ad hominem, first because I was not attacking any individual involved in this discussion, and second because it was an observation on this groups’ actual conduct, on their stated position, and not their character.

I do think something is wrong with their thinking as the author points out.


(Steve Mga) #99

YES! I do not believe we were calling names to anyone on Spectrum.
What we have been pointing out is the duplicity of those who organized
SA2015.
They deliberately well crafted the statement given to the delegates so IF
a Yes vote, it really meant NO. IF a No vote, it really meant NO.
Either way, it was a trick to prevent women to be able to fully answer the
call of the Holy Spirit in the same way the SDA church allows for men.
The prevention of women everywhere, no matter which country or
continent they lived on.


(Elmer Cupino) #100

Hey Mel,

Isn’t it disingenuous of the church to define Commissioned Minsters as “individuals who have demonstrated a divine call to ministry” and then limit what the “divine call” is? How do they know? Do these GC officers who speak for God receive verbal and visual instructions from God that we as laity do not? Perhaps our good friend George Tichy, PhD in Psychology @GeorgeTichy could tell us “a thing or two” about verbal and visual communication with God because he has “seen a thing or two” about hallucinations like Farmer’s Insurance agents have with auto insurance cases.


(Tim Teichman) #101

Or as God talking to you. As visions.