The Investigative Judgment Has Three Main Problems

(jeremy) #285

i think you mean it is cultish, but it actually isn’t…obedience is what all the righteous characters in the bible did when it came to their particular prophet…these fortunate individuals are now in their graves awaiting the resurrection of life…they will certainly be vindicated in the IJ unfolding now, and will certainly live forever when jesus comes…

but the people who didn’t obey their particular prophet didn’t do so well…not only that, but they’re all in their graves awaiting the resurrection of damnation and the lake of fire, where their bodies and souls, and all traces of their existence, will be forever destroyed…they will pay dearly for their disobedience, in addition to what they’ve already paid…

the virtue of obedience to a prophet of god, and the massiveness of the error of disobedience, is probably the biggest lesson in the OT…

(Cfowler) #286

This is so very true, Tim. It’s as if Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren’t enough. The law must be added, otherwise we will be waking up every day wondering what kind of carnage and hurt can we cause today.

I like “ineffective and hollow”…

(Johnny Carson) #287

Jeremy, you seem to be so invested in your own experience that you really do have problems just letting a person’s experience be what it is at the time in their life that they are experiencing it. If they don’t see it the way you do you will beat a dead horse an attempt to, by sheer force of willpower, to change its mind :joy:

(jeremy) #288

i don’t think that’s it, john…a person expressing an opinion backed up by facts isn’t having problems letting other opinions, which aren’t backed up by facts, coexist…spectrum, after-all, is a forum for opinion that is hopefully informed…

(Tim Teichman) #289

And he’ll be sure to do it while overtly refusing to use English correctly. Beyond boorish.

(Johnny Carson) #290

Strange, I didn’t see any facts. I saw interpretation based on a cultish paradigm.

(jeremy) #291

well we’re not just talking from the standpoint of this or any of the conversations here on spectrum…

(jeremy) #292

i would agree that it’s not your notion in the sense that you’ve invented it…but it is your notion in the sense that you’ve adopted it, as i said i suspected…your comments go on to demonstrate that you believe that only nine of the ten commandments apply, which is absurd…the galatians text you cite isn’t saying that the fourth commandment no longer applies…elsewhere, paul calls the law and the commandment holy, just and good…the apostle james calls the decalogue the royal law of liberty, and explains that breaking one commandment means breaking all of them…jesus said he came to fulfill the law, and not destroy it…

when paul says faith delivers us from the law, he is saying faith delivers us from the condemnation of the law because it enables us to keep it…he is saying that faith enables us to move away from keeping the letter of the law, towards keeping it in spirit…as egw so eloquently explains, we are keeping the law because the righteousness of christ is being imputed to our account…in fact a close study of egw shows that supplementing our efforts with his perfection is probably the most important thing jesus is doing for us in the heavenly sanctuary now…

we can’t know that…but we do know that they were instructed to “abstain from pollution of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood,” Acts 15:20, and that they were taught to observe what moses commanded every sabbath, and in every city, Acts 15:21…this tends to suggest that they were taught to observe the sabbath…the fact that paul doesn’t explicitly dwell on the sabbath, beyond his important allusion in Hebrews 4:4-6, suggests that it wasn’t a point of controversy because it was universally accepted…we know that paul used the sabbath to reason with the jews during his missionary journeys to the gentiles, Acts 17:1-3, which suggests he kept it…

i would agree with you here…and because the word describes the importance of the gift of prophecy, people who ignore the gift of prophecy are going outside of god’s word…

yes…the book of Hebrews says the earthly sanctuary and the earthly priesthood were “the example and shadow of heavenly things”, Heb 8:5…in fact the entire point of Hebrews is that the cross of christ represents the moment when the OC gave way to the NC, and when the earthly sanctuary, priesthood and services gave way to the heavenly sanctuary, the heavenly priesthood, and the heavenly services…christ is now our high priest, after the order of melchizedek, in the sense that, like melchizedek, he is eternal, and will never need to have a successor…the currency he is working with is his perfect life on earth and his perfect sacrifice on the cross…his one-time sacrifice is the only sacrifice needed under the NC, which now has universal application and efficacy…

but jesus is not our high priest in name only, and he hasn’t been doing nothing nowhere for the past 2,000 yrs, as so many evangelicals, and even adventists, believe…the truth is that since his ascension, jesus has been in the direct presence of god the father, first in the heavenly sanctuary’s holy place, as depicted in Rev 4 (but also in Rev 1), and since 1844, in the heavenly sanctuary’s most holy place, as hinted at in Daniel 7…just what he has been doing there can be inferred from what the priests and high priests did in the earthly sanctuary under the OC…according to Hebrews, the OC sanctuary, priesthood and services explain to us what jesus has been doing in the heavenly sanctuary under the NC since his ascension…

because the bible writers lived and died essentially at the time of this transition from the OC to the NC, their writings don’t reflect any more detail of what our high priest is now doing in heaven…their entire lives were spent grasping and explaining to others that there had been a transition from the OC to the NC…they were also the targets of relentless persecution…as eye witnesses of jesus after his resurrection, and then as eye witnesses of his ascension, they were the one link the world had to a knowledge of the transition from the OC, restricted to the jews, to the NC, open to everyone, that satan was determined to blot out…they were never in a position to simply rest in the assurance of an eternal high priest working in their behalf, knowing that everyone around them had access to this information…and they were never shown in vision the details of what jesus was doing in heaven…

but in the same way the NT opens up things only hinted at in the OT, egw opens things only hinted at in the NT…this truly is the greatness and importance of egw…while we can study the OC sanctuary, priesthood and services and infer what Hebrews tells us is happening in reality in heaven now, my view is that this isn’t the same as studying the visions of the only prophet that has lived subsequent to bible times, which is egw…

there are vast stores of knowledge in egw…everything from the entrance of evil into the perfection of eden thousands of yrs ago, and how this has caused us as a human race to progressively slip away from god, physically, mentally and spiritually, are the foundation of this knowledge…but egw also uncovers in detail our invisible enemy, which is satan…we know what he looks like…we know his history in heaven, and why he rebelled, and then fell…we know what has been determined in his councils…we know his motive…we know his methods…we know his plans…we know how evil angels work, and what powers they have…

we also know our invisible helpers, the angels, the powers they have, and how to cooperate with them…we know the importance of understanding natural law and how to best preserve our physical potential…we know how to develop true faith…we know what is happening in the heavenly sanctuary now, and how that changed in 1844…and because we know what jesus is doing in the heavenly sanctuary now, we know how to overcome sin and live victoriously…we know and understand the importance of prayer and bible study (which really also means egw study)…we know the importance of physical and spiritual exercise…we know the broad outlines of the future and can see the developments in society that are moving us towards that future now…

this is a very big question…but broadly speaking, preparing for immortality is understanding the meaning of life, and valuing it, now…it is coming meaningfully into harmony with the source of all life, which is god the father, god the son, and god the holy spirit…it is developing a perspective that sees very far beyond what we see around us now…


“Huh, I see, so many things said by [insert false prophet name] were not supported by or in the bible at all? I will prayerfully consider what the bible says about prophets.”
-Things you never read or hear.

(EdZirkwitz) #294

This article suggests this belief is not strongly bible based.

(Greg Cox) #295

Virginia, can you tell us “where” the Father is? Christ sat down at his right hand, and it’s assumed that’s the most Holy Place. But that exists nowhere in scripture. Every scriptural instances is that the Father is in the Holy Pace (see Zechariah 4). The IJ IS, IS, IS the process of our salvation, it’s grace in action, it’s Christ presenting His atoning blood on our behalf, it is salvation.

(Johnny Carson) #296

I’m not Virginia, but in the overall scheme of things it really doesn’t matter where any of us believe the Father is or where Christ is. We get far too bogged down in requiring people to believe all sorts of things that may be accurate or may not be. Christ came to earth to demonstrate, in part, that salvation in Him isn’t nearly as complicated as humans would like to dictate it should be. Whether God the Father or God the Son is in the Holy, Most Holy, or out walking on the Sea of Glass, is simply not important to my relationship with him. Since God the Father is omnipresent He can be multiple places at the same time.


GregCox, you said something that you should really think about… “his atoning blood.” When did Christ shed His blood as our atonement? Was it on the cross? Or in 1844? The Apostle Paul said in Romans (I think) “we NOW have the atonement.” That was in the mid first century! Atonement requires sacrifice. There was no sacrifice made in 1844.

(Greg Cox) #298

Good morning Virginia,
Christ shed his atoning blood on the cross in order to take it personally into the temple in heaven as elegantly outlined by Paul in Hebrews - that is exactly what takes place on Yom Kippur and that is exactly the process Christ followed. No atonement was ever claimed in 1844. 1844 signifies that Christ took His atonement and cleansed the Holy Place (classically referred to as “cleansing of the Sanctuary”) then entered the Most Holy at the end of the 2300 day/year prophecy. This is not a mystery or difficult to understand. Every sacrifice had a process. You don’t just kill the sacrificial animal and then it’s done. Prayers, supplications, repentance and the burning of the animal was then completed. Only modern Christianity has sorely confused this terribly which has lead to many distortions and personal interpretations.
May I suggest Leviticus 16 to explain this process? Because this is the entire process ALWAYS referred to in the NT and by Christ Himself.

(jeremy) #299

john, what makes you think god the father is omnipresent…isn’t it only god the spirt who’s omnipresent…

(Garth Bertrand) #300

George, boy, it is not only you. I am baffled. but my brother it is a sad reality that many Adventist members have gone off on a tangent on Ellen White, that even though they have the bible, Mrs. White is most prominent. Might Jehovah please I ask do help them in their spiritual journey to get back basics.


While pondering the funeral of my father today. I’ve thought about where he is resting at the moment. I joined the SDA church at 12, then left after my first wife died of cancer. (age 52)

One of the major “thought processes” that kept me in the “church” so to speak was the oversell of the function of the 1844 date
in the IJ, of which all the “framework” of interpreting God’s “applied grace” (blood) was symbolically … phased into the most holy place.

There are several assumptions, which were stated as fact to me whilst an SDA. Here is my attempt to unwind them… and tonight some of them seem woefully “not in sync” with the gospel.

  1. EGW as the fulcrum of understanding “end day events”. – without going into the myriad reasoning’s regarding EGW. She is the final word “pope” within all things SDA. Try as one
    may… this fact cannot be controverted. I’ve yet to have a in depth bible study on “biblical subjects” with Adventists friends/foe alike that don’t predicate her as the fulcrum of and inclusion in their “understanding matrix”.

  2. Having unraveled this “instantiated” viewpoint. I must by necessity, vet and search out scripture and it’s meaning (what God is saying to me in His word), without pre-supposition.
    (this doesnt mean that I disrespect others that hold EGW on a level higher than the pope for “doctrinal authority”… I just cannot “buy the coolaid” for me. I must see what is “in the drink”)

  3. This next one is hard… because i abutted against it (pre-set opinion regarding “english” understanding of “present tense” statement of “faith state”). When my first wife died of cancer I watched her – perfect her commitment to God… it doesn’t mean she was perfect… but that her calling and election was perfect. (and this brings into stark relief that concept and context of the gospel)
    – what is the gospel – its making God real via His word to other people. In essence it’s spending time with scripture and taking long examination into the methods and communication processes
    that Jesus used while on earth… to teach us to communicate with others and hold all of value.

  4. This brings me to abortion and the WO movement. (WO) I am neither for/nor against it… specifically is it a major point of contention (in relation to the gospel). I think if we “negate” the effectivenessof women to use their God provided gifts to further “spread the gospel” … to fight against that would be… insane and actually quite stupid.
    I could see the church making a stand on abortion, or even “end it now” … but that abuse support movement… is a mere token acknowledged entity … by the SDA church.

  5. This brings me back to the assurance perspective… which I have a tremendous curiosity about… and interest in. Is assurance found in obedience… or in spending personal “contact time” with God. Some say both, some say neither.

This brings me to the “game” perspective that I consider the SDA church to be… basically a bunch of sycophantic believers that enjoy being a “spectator”. To wit, It’s easy to sit in the stands, eat a veggie dog, popcorn, and a root beer… and observe the action from afar… there is no “being counted”. It cost “too much” to actually stand for something. If you get in the ring… you could “lose” something… but maybe you would get a true’er view of the necessity of the gospel.

  1. I left the church because I don’t see how people before 1844 in the new testament could “present tense greek” state (like Paul) that he was perfectly committed – and most importantly “had assurance”… “present AND past tense”. Any religion that uses coercion to force the conscious – is using the devil’s tool set. God is about love, respect, admiration… He wants you to love him and admire the Holy-ness of His character.

There are quite a few posters here on Spectrum (some I agree with and some I dont) but I appreciate them being “in the arena”.

with kind regards,

(George Tichy) #302

I am glad that @gford1 just finished the new edition of Des’ Glacier View manuscript, and posted it on so that anyone who wants to learn the truth can do it. It is unfortunate that so many people still choose to keep their heads in the sand. Baffling indeed!

At least we have had access to the info for almost 40 years now. I still remember the days when we trusted the information provided by the Church, when the truth was hidden from us, and we lived “by faith” in our religious leaders. Never again!!!

(Kim Green) #303

My condolences on the loss of your father, Grace Vessel. I am glad that you share your thoughts and observations with us here.

(Patrick Travis) #304

Des stayed with me in Atlanta for a Forum meeting we had in the old “World Congress Center”,I believe in 1981. Him and Smuts and 2 others came as part of the new “Good News” formation.
Both were scholars and gentlemen. Des was the more informed, in my opinion, on Daniel but Smuts was also a great speaker.
Glad to hear they are ok down-under. Thanks. It will be a good read for those interested in SDA history. Still have my original.