The Most Powerful Demonstration of the Spirit

“By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:35

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at

the issue today in both church and state is bond or ban. It seems ban is winning. Never in 78 years sine the KKK burned a Cross in front of the Catholic priests home two blocks from my home have. I seen dread such venom.


So what is the plan when tiptoeing thru the tulips isn’t going that great? Like when the primary teacher shows too much “interest” in a particular child, when “something just isn’t right” with the church’s checking account balance, when an elder has been seeing another woman.

Will reading John 13:34 fix everything? At which point does it become acceptable and necessary to discuss boundaries?

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Olive, thank you for a thought provoking and logical summary of this important subject. Most timely and apt for our times. Tom,I too concur with your view we do indeed live in troubled times. Genuine leadership of statesmanlike vision is sadly lacking both in church and state! The only fix is Jesus coming. Bring it on.

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This is precisely what contemporaries thought of Jesus as he willing assumed the role of the suffering servant. He assumed the role of a redeemer who did not succeed by the way of the zealot but by the way of the Cross. A kenotic God who loved unto death on a cross. His way is of pre-emptive Grace. Boundaries are our response to Grace. Not at all the machismo take no prisoners male headship approach to the control of all things and the bringing in of a thousand year of the rule of law, we are told is the new way of life both in contemporary politics and in the proclamation of Judgement you seem to be advocating. Do we now as the folks at Advindicate and Fulcrum 7 and the supporters of Trump do and pursue the model of the God of Numbers, the wrathful righteous judgement that is the path of the Zealot or do we follow the suffering servant proclaiming the Grace and Love of a God who redeems and calls us to act justly and show mercy.

He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?


@webbed you do realize there are ads for hot latin beauties on your website right?

@rohantocharles my search history or other websites I have visited… show how much you know, I shared exactly what I wanted to share. There are inappropriate ads on the website.

Hahahah these are ‘cookies’ and reflect your search history/other websites you have visited!!

You just revealed a lot more than you intended :slight_smile:


Please read the last sentence of the fourth paragraph. Let me copy and paste it here:
“When he argues that law cannot justify a person before God, he is not speaking of universal principles of decency and justice which the sanctified conscience can discern (see Roman 2:14-29), he is speaking specifically of those practices that make one a Jew, signified by the act of circumcision.”


Is this a problem for most Adventists? Is it a problem for more than 10% of Adventists?
Is this a problem for more than a small minority of Spectrum readers?
Is this a problem for more than a small minority of the general conference?

Great clarifications Olive. I used to ask my boss to specifically assign me to Organ duty on the Sabbaths I knew you were scheduled to preach. You know who, you know where. I have , in the meantime, written a tome encapsulating what I have managed to uncover from history about the history of our young species: its called THE POLITICS, SCIENCE, AND MYSTERIES OF CREATION. [AMAZON]. It starts with The Mesopotamian Genesis / how the earth was created/ why was H. sapiens created/ the nuclear war at Sodom and Gomorrah to root out MARDUK , a preternder seeking to overthrow Yahweh/ and so on , I hope you will buy a copy, Thanks. 480 pages. Amazon has allowed many free pages. Let me know any questions you may have.

“When he argues that law cannot justify a person before God, he is not speaking of universal principles of decency and justice which the sanctified conscience can discern (Roman 2:14-29); he is speaking specifically of those practices that make one a Jew, signified by the act of circumcision.”

Does Dr Hemmings want to separate out “universal principles of decency and justice” from the rest of the Jewish Law and make them a necessary part of justification for Gentile Christians? In other words, although they do need to be circumcised, are they otherwise required to live justly in order to receive justification?

This question was debated in several places in early Christian history. In Acts 15 we see a negotiated agreement that certain “practices” be imposed on new Gentile Christians, but not as requirements of salvation or justification. Although Jesus might not have agreed with the list, they became part of the behaviors to be avoided in order to not offend Jewish believers.

Years later, both Paul and John take a more radical stance, and vigorously oppose the imposition of any portion of the Torah on Gentile Christians. Love does not merely fulfill the Law–as if it remains the standard of ethical conduct–but transcends and replaces it. The moral precepts of the Torah and other Jewish writings fade and the new Christian ethics of forgiveness, love and suffering become more distinct. As John states it: “The Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 In Paul’s language, the Spirit does not simply lead the Christian to fulfill the Law more exactly, or even be a more ethical person, but infuses the new reality of agape love into the community. Christians do not need to look to the letter of the Law but to the presence of the Spirit manifest in love.


There are 3 [THREE] places in scripture where we are TOLD HOW to be Holy, HOW to be Perfect in the eyes of God and Christ.
Ways to Act HOLY.
Matthew 5:38-48. Be perfect by NOT resisting an evil doer. And gives examples of His day –
Struck on the cheek – offer the other one also.
Someone takes you outer clothes, give them your underwear also.
If a Roman occupyer forces you to carry his pack one mile, smile, and carry it two miles for him.
Give to someone who begs to you, and loan out to anyone who asks to borrow.
Love one’s enemies who persecute you and pray for them [that is what children on one’s Father in Heaven do]. Recall that the sun shines and the rain rains on everyone – those who live Him, and those who do not.
Luke 6:36 – Be merciful, compassionate like God is.
Leviticus 19:1-2, 9-18.-- Farmers leave harvest in the field along the edges. Vineyards not to be stripped bare, and dont pick up fallen fruit. Leave it for the poor and the alien.
Don’t steal, don’t deal falsely. Don’t lie to each other. Don’t swear falsely about something. Don’t profane God’s name. Don’t defraud one’s neighbor. Don’t steal [take what isn’t yours]. Pay the worker at the end of their shift. Don’t revile a blind person or put things where they will trip over them.
Fear God. Render just judgments. Not be partial to the poor OR defer to the great [treat all the same]. Judge one’s neighbor justly. Don’t slander anyone by telling “tales” on them. Do not profit by the “blood and sweat” of one’s neighbor. Don’t hate any kinfolk. Don’t reprove one’s neighbor [or you will incur the guilt yourself]. Don’t take vengeance or bear a grudge against anyone.
You SHALL love your neighbor as yourself.

Being a Christian is NOT easy. Our job is to Love, Love, Love.
Love God, Love Self, Love Others.
Love, Love, Love others.

EDIT-- Bb –
The outer coat was most often used as a blanket at night when sleeping.
Jesus said to hand them your other piece of clothing covering your naked body.
Take it off, hand it to them standing there in your “BirthDaySuit”.

EDIT – The Main Point I was attempting to make was this – So MANY persons and Preachers in the SDA church QUOTE Ellen saying "WHEN the Character of Christ is PERFECTLY Reproduced in His people, THEN He can come."
BOTH Jesus AND God [through Moses] has outlined here what PERFECT, what HOLY behavior, Character is.

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Just as a point of reference, Steve…the offering of the other cheek and the undergarment were actually non violent acts of protest and public shaming of the aggressor. That tells me that Jesus, while speaking against eye for an eye retribution, was not promoting the idea that his followers be doormats and silent receptacles of abuse. To me, that says that resistance to injustice and calling it out for what it is, is decidedly Christian, as seen, for instance, in the civil rights movement.



Yes, Steve. To stand there after handing over ones undergarment, was to call out the aggressor. To shame them publicly, as if to say, you would even do this to me?

While not retaliation, it was an act of protest, and in an honor/shame culture, put the onus on the one exercising power. IOW, I don’t believe that Jesus was teaching a love that involved allowing oneself to be a silent target of abuse.