The Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America Issues Joint Statement on Thousand Oaks, California, Shooting

(William Noel) #21

I wouldn’t attempt to tell anyone that God was in the incident because it was obvious Satan was working and the character of God would be so hard to find in that club when the bullets were flying. But such events give believers immense opportunities to minister God’s healing love to those who are hurting from the loss of a friend or family member, or just shocked and seeking understanding. People will be seeking answers and healing for a long time so I would be watching to see how God works over the coming weeks and months.

(jeremy) #22

it depends on the way statistics are cited…for example, a country with a relatively small population, like norway, which has a single mass shooting/car bombing in which 77 people are killed (as actually happened), will have a higher per capita death rate than a country with a much larger population with smaller, although much more frequent, mass shootings…

it also depends on whether gun homicides are included with mass shootings, and how mass shootings are defined…america leads the world in the number of gun homicides, irrespective of size of shootings, length of shootings, per capita death rate, per capita wounded rate, number of perpetrators, time of police response, indoor, outdoor, terrorist, or domestic shootings, or whether the perpetrator is mentally ill:

america also leads the world in the number of guns that are owned:

despite the NRA talking points you’re using, there cannot be no connection between the number of guns owned and the number of mass shootings, or gun homicides, that occur…after-all, mass shootings and gun homicides use guns, not knives…perhaps it is true that there would still be the same number of assaults with deadly intent if guns weren’t so widely available, but i think most people would prefer to be in a crowed theatre with someone wielding a knife than an AK-47…

(William Noel) #23

Actually, according to the United Nations, the “honor” of having the most mass killings using guns probably belongs to the Congo. Divide or measure it however you want, there is no question that there is a problem with people wanting to commit acts of violence and guns are their weapon of choice because they are effective. Gun control laws just make the problem worse because criminals don’t care about obeying the law unless they get caught so the law-abiding suffer because they are prevented from defending themselves and putting fear into the hearts of criminals.

(William Noel) #24

What are you calling “heavy firearms?” Such terms are typical of the gun debate because things get described in ways that are so obtuse that they convey inaccurate concepts. For example, can you define “assault weapon?” That description is used a lot in the news media and by proponents of gun control. It draws from the concept of a military assault, but actually is an oxymoron because an assault is simply an attack by one person on another so you don’t need an AK-47 or AR-15 because any weapon used to attack another person is, by proper use of legal terms, an “assault weapon.” By the way, the night club shooter there in Thousand Oaks was using a .45 caliber Glock pistol, hardly what people think of as an “assault weapon.” Yet he used it effectively because he had a target-rich environment and he’d been trained to use it in combat.

Firearms do not become dangerous without human input. They cannot think for themselves, aim themselves or decide when to shoot. So the issue of how a firearm is used ultimately comes back to the state of mind of the person using it. What concerns me far more than the number of guns is the determination of Liberal-minded people to claim that guns are the problem while teaching concepts that actually promote the spiritual and mental issues that lead people to commit heinous acts of violence.

(jeremy) #25

yes, if you call the armed conflicts that result in the targeted group deaths of dozens at a time “mass shootings”, where even small children can be the trained, enlisted killers, the congo probably does lead the world…

but again, if you restrict yourself to the situation where innocent people, who have no connection to a lone gunman, are the victims, america leads the way…in this type of random murder there is a clear connection between the availability of guns and the crime…

(Dan Springer) #26

Yes, Robin, the problem in the UK is not guns, it’s knives…

(Dan Springer) #27

absolutely, Bill. as the owner of 6 long guns and 3 semi automatics AND a concealed carry permit, i have never found my guns sneaking out the door to do someone harm. They stay in their proper place, quietly, awaiting the summons of the human in control of them…

(William Noel) #28

No. America just has the largest uncontrolled news media in the world where it is devoted to publicizing every Liberal viewpoint, including the drive for gun control. For example, in Sweden, Norway, Germany, Russia and China reporting about such events comes with stiff legal penalties where reporters have been imprisoned and news outlets shut-down. But law enforcement statistics from those countries show their rates of attacks by lone individuals where three or more people are killed are on par with or in excess of the United States. Adjusted for population, from 2010 to 2015 Sweden and Norway had almost three times the number of mass shootings as the United States.

Excluding “terrorist” actions from the count skews things further because many so-called terrorist groups are nothing more than armed gangs committing mayhem and willing to kill whoever doesn’t cooperate or pay their extortionate demands for “protection.” If you include them the rates of gun violence are far higher in countries like Somalia. We think of the radical Islamic group al Shabab in Somalia as representative of the Islamic movement there when there actually are many small splinter groups. The same situation exists in Afghanistan where sometimes each town has their own gang that may or may not be loosely affiliated with the Taliban, Isis or al Qaeda, yet they routinely kill anyone they don’t like.

The bottom line: America’s gun violence problem is publicized by politicians and a news media that are devoted to the elimination of the Second Amendment so they make the problem both seem much larger than it is and that it is a uniquely American problem when neither is true.

(William Noel) #29

The Dems may have gained the majority in the House and be able to pass whatever they want, but the Senate must still approve it and the President sign it into law for it to become effective. A further limit on their dreams of radical control is the Judiciary where there now is a solid Conservative majority on the Supreme Court and before the end of Trump’s first term there will be a Conservative majority on almost all the federal District and Appeals courts.


Thanks for the reply and what you post is what happens after the fact.

What I am addressing is this typical shallow pep talk/comforting, soothing, therapy cliché approach of …God is sovereign, God is omnipotent, God is in control…when tragedy happens, when disunity in the SDA church is discussed.

Or the typical response of “Why God ?” when someone who is a nice person dies in an accident or shooting.

Time for a reality check on the extent of God’s influence/involvement.

Christians/churchgoers always have the free will to rebel or go into apostacy.

In Noah’s time…“My spirit will not always strive with man.”

Romans 1… “God gave them up…”

Time for a change in fanatic fantasy. Will God fix anyone with grace without their cooperation??

Think about how many battles of the civil war that EG White wrote where angels were involved over a 5 year period.

(jeremy) #31

actually, america has the largest free press in the world, which is why n. america knows so much about what is wrong with the white house…if we had russia or china’s press, we’d be as subjugated as they are…

you are conflating targeted violence using guns in areas of unrest around the world with the random mass shootings we see displayed in america’s cities on a regular basis, often perpetrated by a lone gunman with mental health issues…a parallel venue in which we are not comparing apples to oranges would be canada, where we see far fewer mass shootings, even per capita, because gun access here is much more restricted…

(Cfowler) #32

And the MSM isn’t biased (or influenced) at all:rofl:

Interesting read for anyone interested…

The press was hugely infiltrated by the CIA. I’m sure nothing has really changed, perhaps a bit more covert now. If something can be done, it will be done.

Does anyone on here watch “House of Cards” on Netflix? It gives a pretty good view of how things work in DC.

(William Noel) #33

God can and will change them when His amazing grace is ministered to the traumatized by loving people who stand by and support them instead of speaking platitudes to them. Such terrible events give those who have experienced God’s love great opportunities for ministering that same love. Ecclesiastes 3:4 tells us there is a time to cry and a time to mourn. Being there as a friend and crying with those who are hurting is far more powerful than any sermon stuffed with platitudes because it is the actual love of God in action.


William , you post about influence that did not answer my question.

I would suggest that you analyze the cognitive aspects.

(William Noel) #35

I’m puzzled to understand what answer you are seeking because I’m speaking from experience ministering to people after traumatic events.


Lots of military in my family and as kids we hunted a lot but before we could even shoot one round we were taught never to point a gun, piece or weapon at anyone loaded or not, yet people are shot all the time with an unloaded gun. We learned everything about each gun, take it apart and clean it etc we did not have a gun safe or trigger locks. So we all knew abt guns with great respect for their capabilities. We also had them around all the time.
We have lots of background checks in this country and we don’t need anymore gun laws so to speak, Just enforce the ones we have now. In this country we have over two million laws on the books, such as civil, local, state etc.
Now God has only ten and those are supposed to secure law and order, Sabbath and worship, you know first 4 and last 6.
Ok so their are lots of guns, weapons and other things to kill people, miners with access to dynamite, ammonium nitrate and all kinds of stuff.
So who are the crazy ones that do these horrible abominations to their fellows? Are they really crazy? Whacked out, angry, lost a job, revenge, hateful, PTSD who some are saying is really not what its truly said to be. What ever is the reason for such acts! some are truly crazy and possibly can’t tell right from wrong mentaly, spiritually etc. Is mental health really the reason for these individuals reasoning. Sure we hear it was pure evil in this shooting or that shooting but no one is saying hey I know the answer, well the answer is the pure fact that the stinking devil is out to destroy one souls life or many anyway he can. Way more people will be destroyed spiritualy and lost by his messed up theology mixed with so many errors mixed with truth than guns used by all the mass shooters.
My point is that gun control would only work if we knew who was possessed by demons driven to mass murder anything, which is impossible. If you have a felony you can’t buy a gun from a regular seller, gun shops, walmart or pawn shops etc. You can buy at a gun show in some states without a check. So the current gun laws should keep the really violent and truly crazy mental health starved people from buying any gun, right!
Any shooting that takes a life is a massive loss to many and the ones where kids are showing off a gun to a friend and someone gets killed. The owner of the gun should be arested.
No more gun laws! How abt parental laws, how abt more moms teaching their children on their laps about the Love of Jesus etc. Our country is producing so many whacked people that have refused all promptings of the Holy Spirit right up to the point they pull the trigger. So tell all this to the mothers and fathers that have to bury a loved one or two. Some see the real deal because they are believers and maybe most don’t.
Gun control! We got it and it dosent work and never will prevent another mass or single shooting. What we need is devil and demon control right, only possible by seeking God and staying in the presence of Jesus, constantly, which is impossible for the crazies bent on destruction driven by demons. No amount of gun control will ever stop this, no government, communist or taking of arms from citizens will stop it. The only thing that will stop it is the RETURN OF JESUS.
A lot to say and they all sadden me very much and what saddens me the most is our country and the world, to a certain extent has become desensitized to this madness: for example the TV shows murder after murder, gang shows, drug dealers, rapes, corruption, killing game videos, halloween, jason, freddy a nearly endless assult of evil on our kids and adults. I mean really are we not training people to be mass murderers with the devil and his demons as teachers, its no wonder we have so many whacked people wanting to become heroes for the stinking devil.
I hope I have a ring side seat when the devil and all his evil angels get fried.
My heart and prayers go out to all these innocent people.
So I say guns don’t kill people, demon possessed people do. As most of us know already.

(William Noel) #37

Well said. The “unloaded gun” and “while cleaning a gun” are polite police terms for “suicide.”

(Spectrumbot) #38

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