The Unacknowledged Protest at Ted Wilson's Q&A


(Andrew) #42

“I heard that it was said that the slaves liked being slaves, too. That they ‘preferred’ being slaves. White Christian slave owners took comfort in this idea.”

I think your words speak for themselves.

I don’t have a problem with ethnic churches. I don’t like TW either but I’m not interested in laying an historic issue like this at his feet in an attempt to score a church political point.


(Leandro) #43

This was a clever move by an administration who wants to be always in control over the church. Questions are catalysts for change. They do not want it. They are the farmers and we are their cattle. We work for them. They get our milk.


(Tim Teichman) #44

How is that? What do they say to you? It’s just history.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #45

Policy makers should have cogent ready Answers for the policy in any forum. The president was Teaching how to hold one’s chair not how to advance inquiry. Maybe there were crass students in the line but we will never know. If so why not expose them rather than make them victims of high handed power. Rome never answered Luther’s inquiry.


(Faith) #46

TW has a control issue but he does have power and influence. Wouldn’t it make a difference if he came out boldly against any kind of abuse and discrimination? I fear the day this church faces the me-too movement. We must stop this continued choosing of people with the same name. This is not a dynasty. If the leaders were only given one name to vote on they should have voted no confidence and refused to vote for TW. Who is going to stand?!


#47

So what kind of abuse and discrimination has he endorsed. I mean with specific statements. This, why does not someone act the way I think they should react if really a waste of time. They aren’t you and you aren’t them. I bet if I took the time I could find several statements against abuse and discrimination from him (please don’t make me waste the time looking) but I also bet you would find hardly anything in favor of abuse and discrimination.


(Kathleen Dunn) #48

Disappointed again by Pres. Wilson and also by the Press. of AU. One can’t say that you want to hear from the church’s young people, and not allow them to talk of even, as in the case of Wilson, not acknowledge. These silently standing young people represent the concerns many of us who were not present.


(Tim Teichman) #49

Here he is blowing smoke. He is 1) a man, 2) not an MD, and 3) not a mental health professional. He should not be making statements about when it is appropriate for a female to have an abortion:


“Seventh-day Adventists believe in the sanctity of life. We believe that God created human beings on the sixth day of a literal seven-day week and rested on the seventh day. When God created man, and then woman, he created the opportunity of procreation.
“The Bible says that He indicated that they are to be fruitful and multiply, so we believe that life itself is a beautiful, sanctified gift from God,
“but the SDA are strong supporters of the sanctity of life.
“Most Seventh-day Adventists would be very supportive of the sanctity of life and not in favor of abortion unless the mother’s life was in danger or perhaps there was incest or rape involved, and that is left to the individual to decide, at least in some countries,”
From Jamaica Observer, “World Adventist leader says no to abortion.”


Then there’s this. I find it abhorrent:

"This self-sacrificing spirit and genuine humility born out of connection with Christ is what every one of us need today to diminish the tendency in all of us to champion our own opinions and convictions in the face of the general church’s voted actions — God’s remnant church on earth. It would appear that opposition to compliance of the Seventh-day Adventist general body’s actions such as the General Conference in session or such as the General Conference Executive Committee functioning as God’s remnant church, on the grounds of “conscience” would come face to face with a wall of evidence from Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy indicating that independent thinking must be submitted to the larger body’s decisions." - 11th annual Global Leadership Summit, on Feb. 6, 2018, in Lisbon, Portugal


I find this highly objectionable. Christ came to have “power” over each of us? What, like a feudal landlord? I don’t think so:

“Certainly, Christ’s power over each of us and His church and our submission to that power is of utmost importance in realizing the spiritual necessity of church unity and biblical authority to accomplish God’s mission of proclaiming Jesus’ soon, second coming when the culmination of complete unity takes place.” - 11th annual Global Leadership Summit, on Feb. 6, 2018, in Lisbon, Portugal


Here Ted has decided that he’s an expert in the field of love and marriage. He holds up the bible as an example.
I will ask, has he read the examples of marriage in the bible, of the marriages of the biblical heroes? I ask because marriage practices int the bible are not only divergent within the bible, but also very, very different than our modern western and commonly-understood Christian ideas of marriage:

“There are influences outside and within the church attempting to change God’s institution of biblical marriage between one man and one woman. Brothers and sisters around the world, ………stand firm for God’s Word as it confirms biblical marriage, biblical human sexuality, and the biblical family as instituted by God Himself.” - Oct 12, 2018 | Battle Creek, Michigan Annual Council Sermon

So, is he referring to Abraham’s son with a slave girl, Solomon’s hundreds of wives, David’s lust for many women that drove him to (essentially) murder, Ruth’s extra-marital seduction of the (likely married) local rich leader, marriage of sisters to their brothers, the requirement to accept your brother’s widow as your second wife, the proper type and amount of payment for your daughter to her suitor’s family, or something else? Not sure.

In any case, deriding everyone who has different ideas about marriage than himself, and using the bible (of all things) as a defense of those actions is at least disingenuous for a learned biblical scholar. Most likely it also includes either deception or personal delusion. Take your pick.


(Allen Shepherd) #50

The black conferences could vote to dissolve themselves, could they not? Could the Lake Regional Conference ask the Lake Union to disband it and allow the various churches to become part of the regular conferences, like Indiana, Illinois etc…? Do you think the “white” (actually hispanic, and mixed etc.) conferences would object to the admission of these churches into their ranks? I don’t think so. I pastored a “white” church that was 50% black and 20% hispanic. The service was along standard white tradition, but there was a black church, Mizpah, a few miles away that had more black traditional services. People went where they wanted to. And the Northwest church (a white church) had a small school that many of the blacks from the surrounding regional churches attended. We even asked if they wanted to be constituent churches for the school. None ever wanted to.

So, I think it is a bit more complicated than you seem to think.


(Allen Shepherd) #51

Hmmm…

Are men not allowed to have an opinion on abortion? It does take two to tango.

Do you have to be an MD to have an opinion on abortion, or are only female MD’s allowed to have an opinion?

Do you have to be a mental health professional to have an opinion?

What kind of thinking would require such regimentation and take away so much freedom? Sound’s like the Soviet Union.


#52

So holding a view similar to 80% of the US population on the sanctity of life is abuse or discrimination (80% being those who oppose late term abortions). If you really think that one must be only a woman, a MD or a mental health professional to have an opinion on Abortion you are kind of out there.

His position on opposition to compliance is not too healthy. I mean not as abhorrent in my opinion as someone saying only certain people can have views on abortion but bothersome. Still it is none the less true as an organization you can always leave so you are somewhat left with compliance anyway. That other one about independent thinking must be submitted to the larger body is also from an EGW quote. Again another quote that likely is not all that divinely inspired.


(Tim Teichman) #53

I don’t know. It may be theoretically possible.

What is more complicated? Do you mean eliminating race-based conferences?


(Tim Teichman) #54

Everyone gets to have an opinion.

But he is the church president making a statement to the entire church - asserting (incorrectly) what Adventists believe / what they should believe and practice regarding a complex medical and mental health issue. His assertion of what Adventists ought to do and why is woefully inadequate (even if he was only speaking to the US members) and it is outdated by a few decades.


(Tim Teichman) #55

Popular opinion is irrelevant. His commends were not limited to late term abortions.

I didn’t write that. But he is none of these things. He is pontificating on a issue, making public assertions on what the entire church should believe and practice, and at the same time he clearly does not have a full grasp of the subject. It is inappropriate for such a person, in a leadership role, to make simplistic assertions on a complex subject he apparently does not understand.

This is dangerous behavior, especially as we know there can be great harm to women who are found to be pregnant when they “should not” be. This harm can be financial, legal, emotional, and physical.


#56

Hardly irrelevant, because people have opinions. Christians have opinions and the opinion that sanctity of life is important to Christians is the norm in Christianity. When you are talking about killing a genetically separate human being inside its mother, to think that a church leader has no need to do that is kind of strange. I am pretty sure the church has in session voted on a statement about abortion and he is quite in line with that. Oh yes here it is voted by the Executive Committee at the Annual Council session in Silver Spring, Maryland, October 12, 1992. https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/guidelines/article/go/-/abortion/


(Tim Teichman) #57

I stand corrected. If the Executive Committee voted on it 27 years ago then it’s all settled.

Somehow I still think final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman. No one else can know what is best. It should not be based on the advise of the church - a pastor, group of pastors, or our fearless leader - none of whom are likely trained in the matter.


#58

Yeah, well the church does not make the decision for anybody do they now! No one has to go down to the church before they go to an abortion clinic. So fear not…A lot of pastors do get counseling training by the way, but I am sure you know that and just forgot.


(Tim Teichman) #59

Well Ted seems to want to based on his statements.

The issue is they may not go at all - even when they should - because of statements like the ones Ted makes.

No, I didn’t know. Where do they get this training? Is it specifically to help women decide what to do with an unwanted pregnancy? Is it in depth and scientific and up to date - using the latest medical and mental health information? Or does it rely on the church’s interpretation of possibly-related bible texts?

Also, does the church have ethical guidelines and standards for the training and standards for such counseling? That would surprise me, as they don’t seem to for other matters where professional counseling is needed.


#60

Probably best to ask some pastors those questions.


#61

I did see this after a quick search. https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1999/05/should-pastors-counsel