Time to Speak Out


(William Noel) #21

Since Pacific Press won’t print your book, how about releasing it as an e-book on Amazon for an attractively low price? You potentially will reach more Adventist readers that way than by selling through Pacific Press and the Adventist Book Centers, which reach only a small and shrinking faction of the members in North America.


#22

That’s what I intended to say. Discussion was expected and encouraged. The church grew without resorting to power-mongering. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.


(Martha Feldbush) #23

Thank you for stating this so eloquently. My ernest prayer is for our leadership to look honestly at what they are doing and where they are taking the church. I have confidence that God will keep his church, his people, together as we look forward to the kingdom. But I also realize the SOP predicted s shaking/ sifting time would come to the church where it appears to fall but does not. How the church will look at the conclusion of that process only God knows. I know only that God’s kingdom operates on biblical principles and at the moment I do not see our church leadership following those principles. I too am very disappointed and sad. I feel betrayed by my church.


(George Tichy) #24

There you go again Allen. We may be “fools” but not stupid. It’s not the supporters of WO who are preparing an inquisition and forming “groups to investigate compliance.” The split will be caused by those intolerant people who are seeking the perpetuation of discrimination in our Church.

Therefore, trying to distort the facts is not going to work. Good try though…


(Terrill Utt) #25

It seems you have completely missed the point of what this matter is really about. WO is a related topic to a much bigger issue. Before reducing this to being just about WO, consider the rapidly increasing number of SDA unions, conferences and institutions on at least three continents who have taken a position to not support, and even oppose the GC move to alter church structure and authority. Do you and others see something these leaders are missing? If you think it should be a non-issue or best left to small groups in committees, another reading of the Union/conference statements and related article may be time well spent. No one with an honest heart wants to see the church divided over WO or anything else. As the ongoing events occur and an increasing number of leaders and lay people may be losing confidence in the leaders at the GC world headquarters, it is time for Adventist’s to speak out and be willing to take a stand. It may also be time for certain GC leaders to reconsider the trajectory of their current actions and, to promote the health and mission of our church, step aside.


(Ed C Bennett) #26

I agree there is no scriptural backing to the practice of ordination, which highlights a problem. I see with the SDA church along with many others, the reformation was never completed, We are far removed from the Spirit of the Apostolic missional movement that Paul epitomised. SDA’s like the others have many blind spots while claiming to be guided only by scripture alone. If that were true there would be no heirarchical arrangement of the “priesthood of all believers”. Scripture does not divide believers, (disciples), into clergy and laity, it does not even mention clergy and laity.
It suits the church leaders to use the Bible when it suits but ignore it when it might threaten their structures, traditions, titles and prestigious positions.
I believe there is a change moving however and the Spirit will make clear who really are God’s people.


(Frank Peacham) #27

I look to see this issue resolved in the election of a new GC president in 2020, as Elder Wilson will be 70 years old. The longstanding aspect of human behavior is that most of the leadership, including pastors and teachers, will accept a changes policy and theology to keep their jobs and retirement in place.

The vast majority of believers throughout human history the survival instinct is more powerful than theology. I don’t believe our church is any different, a few speak out, but 95+% of our membership and leaders keep their opinions to themselves. Few are able to step into another employment overnight and keep their mortgage payments current. Being silent is the preferred way a believer leaves it all in the hands of God. Since they reason that if God put Elder Wilson in position, so let God take care of the issues. Anyway it is not possible today to reason with anyone on the Right or Left with free and open discussion. So the average member could believe, “don’t worry about these issues,” they will just get you in trouble and make enemies.


#28

William,

Thank you so much for your continued support for rightful awareness, actionable suggestions and encouraging words!


#29

I got my POM POMS out…

Lean to the LEFT, lean to the RIGHT…stand up , sit down FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT.


(Allen Shepherd) #30

Sirje said: “Do you know what you have actually said here? What is then dividing the church? One opinion vs. another opinion. If the subject is not even mentioned in scripture, then on what basis is each side being strident? It’s not a spiritual issue, so it must be based on something else - what?”

Hmmm. and 15 “loves” so far!

Yes, I know what I am saying. It is one opinion against the other.

One side sees it as a moral issue that must be instituted, without scriptural support.
The other sees it as a cultural issue that should be avoided.

Sirje: “The GC is excluding women because they always have, and because the cultures that regard women as property have more votes than cultures that have moved on from ancient cultural attitudes;”

I am not sure the GC always has, EGW being a good example.
But I agree that the third world has rejected WO on the basis of culture.

Sirje: "…while those looking for equality base their quest on the equality the gospel gives them as outlined in Galatians (SDA’s least favourite book): There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The writer of Galatians apparently had no problem writing that women should be quiet in church while at the same time writing the verse in Galatians (hardly SDA’s least favorite book: 1888). So I do not see that WO is a necessary conclusion of the verse.

Actually the issue is that the west does not want the third world dictating an opinion to them that they disagree with. Their opinion is that WO must be done. The third world, a majority by a long shot, feels their opinion should prevail.

Since it is just a matter of opinion, the vote should stand.

I will not argue against the idea that the third world should have relented, it being only a difference of opinion. But I suspect they were sick and tired of being talked down to. WO is sort of a “White Privilege” issue, and they decided to make it an issue of brown privilege, that is, they would hold their opinion as the one that should prevail.

Sort of hard for those with “White Privilege” to take. Thus the schism.


#31

As I have posted before…90% of churchgoers in Christianity have never read the whole bible. Also in my recent poll at the local SDA church only 20% or less of the attendees in the large 50+ SS class even took time to read the book of ACTS over 3 months.

I don’t really care if all SDA pastors were female since most pastors need a reformation in teaching methods/approaches anyway. Many sermons are SDA institutional, great controversy, 3 angels message, cultish and superficial loaded with obscure clichés & religious lingo.

There are some/many who will contend that the lack of WO is due only to culture restrictions. Whatever.

About 35 years ago, I was nominating committee chairman at a church of 600 members. The issue of women elders (not pastors) came up.

At that time an acting dean of Andrews was visiting the church.
He seemed to be pro women position. I brought up 1 Tim 2:12-14
He admitted that passage was a problem.

“For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” 13 &14

You see, the support for Paul’s position is NOT cultural but pre-fall as well as post fall.

That is why the word "desire " in Gen 3:16 is significant. It means dominating controlling desire and the word is also used in Gen 4:7. Gen 3:16 is the beginning of GENDER CONFLICTS.

Anyway, the conflict & divisions will prevail because most Christians including SDA are not consecrated but are of the world.

“They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.” 1 JN 4:5

What can one expect when 80% of SDA SS attendees can’t even spend an average of ONE minute a day reading the book of ACTS?

Clue: SDA should start to consider that they are not Laodicean but of SARDIS.


(George Tichy) #32

Hey, in July/2020 I will still be 69! WDYT???.. :wink:


(George Tichy) #33

Well…, we know well who “put Elder Wilson in position,” don’t we? Therefore, I believe that those same people should take “care of the issues” and repair the mistake they made. But, politics are politics. They are always denied, but always enforced. And the result is what we are seeing now, a path to a split Church if the AC18 does not intervene and stop this ongoing nonsense.


#34

If you were elected GC pres, the church would still be spiritually sicko


(George Tichy) #35

And what is your point judging people based on their reading of Acts? Does it mean that they do not read any Scripture at all, or engage in some form of spiritual devotional?

Where is it written that one needs to read ANY portion of the Bible daily? I know it is good, but where does such a “daily rule” come from?

Why Are you criticizing people again because they are not reading what YOU think they should be reading daily now? Leave them alone!

Are you part of the KGC task force, the new “Alibaba and his 40” that are going to check on peoples liberty?


(George Tichy) #36

But at least the GC would be history! That’s my campaign platform, to eliminate the GC within 6 months of my mandate. No more GC, no more KGC. All salaries diverted to local churches for local projects. Yes, a would end my own employment, going back to what I do now: retired but working two very long days a week.

And, contrary to what it is now, “sicko,” the Church would be healthy.

LET’S MAKE THE CHURCH HEALTHY AGAIN!


#37

And how could that happen, Dr.Tichy?

Just with your items agenda above?


(Patrick Travis) #38

Tom,
We are old enough to remember also when William Johnsson was a vistor on the Ankerberg program talking to Walter Martin. Johnsson has been at least amiable through the years, as I recall, to JBF “alone.”
Over the issue of Des and Glacier View it seems he was on board in principle with the “party line” with Wilson that demanded a recant or removal of SDA credentials. If he wishes to respond and correct my understanding, I will, given proper evidence, apologize.
Why bring that up? Because the actions at that time, in my view, allowed the continuance of doctrinal errors and positions related to EGW and authority. It allowed for the dual view of Andreason and today’s Last Generation.
It did away with the focus on the Protestant view of Luther & Calvin on JBF “alone.”
It left Adventism with “Progressives” and the “Right”, the later which Johnsson
now has sorrow for the actions. May I add that with few exceptions “progressives” were silent also.
Complicit fence sitting in previous times have come home to roost. Welcome to what fence sitters created in their silence during the last purge of Des, et.al.
“You got what you paid for.”
Regards


(Jeffrey Kent) #39

In other words, the work will move ahead more quickly if the women just give it up and remain silent?


(Thomas J Zwemer) #40

We are at a time when all of man’s Towers of Babel are crumbling down. Once there was a song dear to the Church. we Have this Hope. The Gospel tells us We Have This Assurance. That is the only true reason for a pulpit. The issue is not who stands there but what is said there. Waving an open Bible is without merit.