Time to Speak Out


#41

Do a poll for SDA.

What % have hope of salvation ?
What % have assurance of salvation?


(Jeffrey Kent) #42

Now it’s a race issue more than anything else – so let’s let it go. Really?


(Sirje) #43

EVERYTHING is not about race.

If, when the writer of Galatians directs women to sit down and shut up, then why hasn’t the church obeyed with libraries filled with a woman’s declartion of “I was shown…”? Apparently we all pick and choose, based on something other than “thus says the the Lord”.

WO becomes a wider issue in a country that made women equal to men by law. I don’t understand how women can be excluded by the church in any way. Not that long ago women could not be considered “head of house” qualifying for all sorts of monetary considerations. It seems it’s taking an awful long time for God’s perfect remnant to catch on.


(George Tichy) #44

This is apparently what @dkopriva is saying.
Based on his last name, this is a pretty hot comment…
(Check it’s meaning in Slovenian; though in Czech it’s the same word, “kopřiva”). :wink:


(George Tichy) #45

I bet you dispute people’s ability to do a poll, or even to define what the word “salvation” means, right? Their ability to learn/teach is nihil according to your several prior posts throughout the years. Nobody but you, of course, is capable of those things… :roll_eyes:


(Allen Shepherd) #46

Sirji,

I said initially that it was an issue not even mentioned in scripture. That is still so, and it seems inappropriate to divide the church over such a thing.

As far as God’s “perfect remnant” catching on, well, I am not sure what various countries think makes any difference when scripture is silent. I did not know that countires were the standard, but perhaps your opinion is that they are. So which countries should we take as the standard?


(Allen Shepherd) #47

One can look at it as such, don’t you think? it certainly is a West vs Third world issue, and that can be seen as sort of a White vs Brown. If you don’t see at least the shade of that, then you are missing the dynamics here.


(Allen Shepherd) #48

I like the stark contrast, Professor. It is either WO or they remain silent.

That is a false dichotomy. Women have a voice whether ordained or not. Not doing WO does not take their voice away.

Be more honest in your characterization.


#49

Time to get a support group going for SDA like AA

Make it AAA for

Apathetic Adventists Anonymous


(Elmer Cupino) #50

Allen, do you appreciate being mistaken as a “physician assistant?” Do you correct your patients when they refer to you as less than “Doctor” especially when talking about treatment planning?


(Allen Shepherd) #51

Do churches that have commissioned women really see a difference because they are not ordained? And by the way, most of the referrals to my office are being made by Nurse Practitioners.

Western women can take being commissioned rather than ordained. The title makes little difference. But respect for he third world where all the growth is should be a concern.

A bit of semantics should not be so bothersome to the West, when the stakes are weighed.

And, no, not doing WO does not take women’s voices away.


(Elmer Cupino) #52

Would you kindly answer my question without redirecting? It either is “yes” or “no.” You know, the type of question Dr. Tichy @GeorgeTichy is widely known for.

Do you know the origin of how “commission” for women was made? I believe that was a suggestion from the IRS when Neal Wilson was confronted of losing church tax exemption if he did not pay equally both male and female ordained ministers. So he took the easy way and acquiesced thus saving money for the church at the expense of gender.

It’s payback time.


(Allen Shepherd) #53

I do correct them, although it does not happen often.

You point is that a person should be addressed by the appropriate title? I think that in either case, whether ordained or commissioned, the appropriate title would be “Pastor”. Not so? Or Elder?

So I don’t see so much of a difference here.

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

  1. No scripture that says we must do WO
  2. Almost the same responsibilities etc.
  3. Only a difference in a policy name, ordination or commissioning. Not a difference in title, it would be Pastor or Elder.
  4. Lack of respect for the third world sensitivities. Ordination is a world wide designation, and would have to be respected everywhere.

So, dividing the church over this seems applying to large a tool for a small problem.


(Elmer Cupino) #54

So why would it be right in your case and not with others?

If you have failed your board certification would you inform all your patients?


(Sirje) #55

The GC of the SDA church is located in the USA. In the US women have equal rights with men. Beyond that, Western culture has also recognized the equality of women. There are other places where that is not the case, although I don’t know for sure. My point here is that the church cannot treat women as second class citizens. Not providing women with the same job opportunities as men has to be against the law in the US. It becomes a fuzzy area when religious beliefs oppose national law - which trumps what? I can’t believe that if human sacrifice is part of a religion, the US law would permit it; therefore, national law rules over religious behaviour if individual rights are disregarded.


(Robert Lindbeck) #56

Apparently @gideonjrn, neither are you willing. My offer to study Prov 9:10 with you on another thread has met with deathly silence. The offer still stands.

With regards to the status of women, as that is what all this is about.

Gen 2:18 - She was formed as a complement to Adam, not subservient to him.
Gen 3:16 - The change of status that God outlined in this verse and the following was a consequence of sin.

When does the idea that man should rule women first get raised? After the fall of mankind. Adam blames Eve, Eve blames the serpent. God says that woman would have pain in labour and that man would rule woman. The kicker is this - this is given after the fall. It was not God’s original plan. It was as a result of their unwillingness to accept responsibility. If it was not part of God’s original plan, why do we continue to promote it now? By doing so we are saying we wish to stay in a sinful state. We should be promoting God’s original plan for mankind, not the sinful state. We live in a sinful state but we should always be looking to what was God’s original plan.

In God’s original plan there were no divisions - gender or cultural. Yes, there was man and woman but they were equal. The change in equality came after the fall as a consequence of sin. Cultural differences did not exist until well after that. They came into existence as a result of sin at the Tower of Babel when God confounded mankind’s language. This caused separation within mankind which led to cultural differences. We should be looking beyond our differences to God’s original plan.

Not prevail, continue. Prevail means to win.


(Elmer Cupino) #57

How much of a possibility is it that @gideonjrn could also be wrong with his theological interpretations?


(Robert Lindbeck) #58

@elmer_cupino unless I am horribly mistaken @gideonjrn is very much like me - just a person with an opinion, fallible and imperfect.


(Elmer Cupino) #59

Hey, that makes 3 of us. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

@gideonjrn


(George Tichy) #60

Allen, is there any particular reason for not including Men’s Ordination in your point #1?