Time to Speak Out

(George Tichy) #61

Very well said. I actually I am starting to think that this issue about discrimination of women will not stop in the church until it is brought up for judgement by the public opinion or even by the courts.

If such a thing ever happens one day, it will be a very shameful exposure of the church to the public at large. But I hope that the church will not try to blame anyone but itself. What Ted Wilson and his cohorts are doing cannot go under-covered forever, hidden from the public. One day it will surface.

Let’s not forget what happened when Walter Rea contacted the LA Times and gave them his story. It was devastating for the church and a beginning of a real crisis. Although, in a certain sense, it was a great way to inform church members of the truth about an issue that had been hidden from them for ages.


Do you think that there would be or have been a big issue in the North America or elsewhere if it was about hiring women as preachers? Afterall North America had a good deal of famous women preachers in the 1800’s, Or is this all about the rather artificial nature of ordination where the pastor is the head of the local church? Since I believe the whole ordination thing with a pastor as the head of the church is wrong it is hard to think that we should further enshrine a wrong concept. That is why I think this is a far bigger issue then women’s rights and church government. Though it is certainly an opportunity to correct the ordination error and in turn overturn a whole lot of the church government issues.

(Cfowler) #63

Can the courts force a church to ordain women?

(George Tichy) #64

At least the three of you will not be bothered by Kevin Paulson. You guys are not good candidates for his LGTarianism… :smiley:

(George Tichy) #65

I don’t think so, but the courts will be very harsh on the Discrimination issue. The reason why women are not ordained is straightforward discrimination, and that’s not tolerated in our society anymore.

(Leroy Gillan) #66

Can the courts force a church to ordain women? Was it last week or the week before that the courts ruled that all corporations in California MUST have a woman on their board of directors? That seems like saying that the church is going to get in trouble if they do not ordain women or they must NOT ordain men. something to consider.

(Sirje) #67

I agree. Ordination should disappear, but the church is set up with ordination as the basis for the job of a preacher; and is a measure of the pay scale for such a job; and, I suppose, for job security. It’s purely a primary rung on the corporate ladder. Women are being left off that ladder since many of the subsequent levels of employment require an ordained person. It’s a sneaky way of keeping women from ascending that ladder and shutting them out, regardless of their commitment or ability - after all, the requirement is for an ordained person. A bit of circular reasoning. We’re good at that, even theologically.

(Peter) #68

I feel you are very mistaken in generalizing that women are, in general, not created to be pastors. It doesn’t seem that you are acquainted with the highly successful work of multiple women pastors. I believe Elder Bohr is blindly, stubbornly ignoring the clear words of Scripture:

Galatians 3:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

These words alone contradict your assertion about men and women.

(Peter) #69

“The Bible” is a human compilation of writings from a very, very long period of time. Compilations are not typically meant to be read cover to cover.

You may quote 1 Timothy 2:13-14.

In response, I refer you to Galations 3:28: 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

(Allen Shepherd) #70

As I siad, the title for both an ordained pastor, and a commissioned pastor is the same: Elder or Pastor. Even TW has no bigger title than Elder. So what is the problem?

The state would not let me do certain things, or the hospitals would not credential me. I have not retaken boards, as mine expired in 2010. So, I am not eligible for some things. No problem. This is not the issue here.

  1. Not ordaining does not mean women are second class. Commissioning gives them access to all job except president. A small issue in my mind. But of course, not yours
  2. The state cannot force ordaining. The RCC has NO ordained women, and is perfectly in compliance with the law in the US. We have freedom of religion here, so the state cannot force ordination.

Adventist ordination is to show who is authorized to speak for the church. Commissioning is the same. So I do not see the issue.

The courts will never touch this. It is a matter of religious practice, and the courts have no jurisdiction on the matter.

I believe you are mistaken here. People can be preachers without ordination or commissioning. The church hires folk out of college without any ordination at all, except as local elders. I was one for several years.

Now there is a feeling that ordination should be reached by a pastor after a certain time. But if that individual is not ready, it does not necessarily happen.

That is ridiculous. Commissioning gives a person the same things as an ordination foes, and I believe the same salary. All except the presidency.

(Cfowler) #71

It seems though, that churches and their practices are a bit different from corporations or businesses. LDS women aren’t allowed to be bishops or presidents of regional organizations. I don’t think the courts can force them to do that, nor would I want them to. Or be involved in any churches internal affairs…unless there is some sort of criminal behavior going on.

(Elmer Cupino) #72

So why maintain two titles that are exactly the same other than to discriminate?

But would you volunteer to inform all your patients of not maintaining your certificate knowing it would affect your professional standing, not to mention your income?

(Allen Shepherd) #73

Because the church has voted not to ordain women worldwide. Those unions that wish to have women pastors may commission them, allowing them to do all ordained individuals can except be president. This is done to respect the sensibilities of the third world.

I am not sure what you are getting at. If I am credentialed by the hospital, I can do all that they allow, and I tell patients that wish me to do more, that I can’t. I have not sent out a general letter, and do not think I am required to, nor think it necessary. But I am not being dishonest, I don’t do things I am not allowed to do.

My practice now is almost all office based. I do a few scopes, but little else.

But what does this have to do with WO?


Yes, that may have something to it. But I don’t think what we refer to as an ordained pastor is the same as a preacher. A preacher would be like a teacher, We have artificially invested more in term Pastor, following the Roman Catholic’s method of a bishop. Now, where does the power in the Roman Catholic Church derive? It comes from their bishops and the levels above bishops who all used to be bishops. It is the same in the SDA church the power is from the local pastors and their higher-ups who also used to be pastors. It always seemed funny to me that even the conference treasurers used to be pastors, they never seemed to use CPA’s or financial planners etc.

So people can fight for jobs for women but that won’t help solve the organizational structural problems, it won’t solve the ecclesiastical problems at the local church level either. We would just shift things to fit in with Western political sensibilities. Granted at least in the Western countries it is an easier goal but not really a very useful goal in my opinion.

(Jeffrey Kent) #75

Geography, yes. Melanin, no. Culture, yes.


Utter rubbish, this isn’t about petty US social/political issues or level of thinking ‘White Privilege’, or feel they are being talked down to. The people in the countries referred to as 3rd World certainly don’t think like this at all. This kind of ridiculous language and concept has not place in discussions of this nature and is arrogantly ignorant of how people outside the US actual view the world.

One wonders where this notion comes from?

Let the words of the people speak for themselves. In the example below you will find that they do not describe the issues as you have.

(Robert Lindbeck) #77

@ajshep, if you are going to fire off like that, I would aim a little further to the left. Otherwise you may shoot your argument in the foot. What you describe here is the very definition of discrimination in practice.
“I am sorry Mdme, you can’t serve as Conference President because you are not ordained.”
“Why can’t I be ordained?”
“Because you are a woman.”
“You can do every other job, just not that one.”
“Weren’t you listening? I said because you are a woman.”

(Robert Lindbeck) #78

@ajshep, I warned you not to aim so close to your foot…this is exactly what discrimination is.

(Allen Shepherd) #79

[quote=“David1, post:76, topic:16868”]
Let the words of the people speak for themselves. In the example below you will find that they do not describe the issues as you have.
[/quote] (there followed a post by AdventNetwork)

  1. Do you really think that the “AdventNetwork” reliably reflects what the third world thinks on this matter? If so, why was WO voted down by the GC?

  2. I have yet to see on Spectrum an article or essay against WO. Have you seen any? So there is no actual “spectrum” here at all, but a continual drum beat for one opinion. So I would be surprised to see that “AdventNetwork” was any different.

Selection bias in action.

(Allen Shepherd) #80

Robert, you are missing my point.

Your side is ready to divide God’s remnant church for this one issue, women are not allowed to be president. The third world does not want WO. Can you let them have their way on this one thing, that is no women presidents? Do you think that that is worth dividing this church?

Not only that, There is no Biblical command that we must, or any mention of WO in the Bible at all!

Commissioned can do anything but be president. How about a bit of understanding of those that differ with you, and give them a bit of allowance.

How about some tolerance of a differing view?