Sigve, I ask not what your relationship is to any theologian, but what is your relationship to the rest of scripture and the ministry model of Jesus? His focus was not on prophecy, but on demonstrating the love and power of the Father. As Adventists we have a historic obsession with Daniel and Revelation. How about putting them into context as just two out of 66 books in the Bible where there is much more that God wants us to know? How about some focus on what God wants us actually doing instead of allowing Satan to preserve us paralyzed, spiritual eunuchs who are so focused on those two books that we fail to do what Jesus told us to do.
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Two years ago, because I was not confident in my understanding of Daniel and revelation I started a project, where I would read each book of the bible and then compare that book to Daniel and Revelation. It was good for me. I wrote down my findings. And I found in my comparing of revelation and many parts of the OT, the exact dynamic you have highlighted. The good thing is I even made voice notes at the time. I am so happy to find that you also saw the same thing that I saw, in revelation suffering mainly falls on the righteous although it does break down when we get to the last plagues, what is clear in revelation, suffering is no indicator of one’s spiritual standing, righteous and wicked all experience it at different times. I also took note of the lack of cosmic conflict dimension in the OT, except for a few places, opposition to God and his way in the OT is mostly driven by humans but in a few places in the OT and every in the NT including revelation, the opposition is basically described as being driven by the enemy. So when I say Aemen to your work, its because I am learning, but also because I am happy that I can see what I saw and have documented being discussed in a more thorough way. its really nice for so many reasons. Comments about Graham Maxwell usually make it sound like his impact is confined to Loma Linda, well this is really quite mistaken, since I am one of many people who have never been to Loma Linda but I too have a story. What I know is if someone teaches me a good thing, what I do is accept it. I always feel like speaking up when people malign someone, I don’t think it helps most of the time though. I just find it hard to keep quiet under some circumstances though.
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Overwhelmingly consumed by the desire to wield predictive power,
the power of character is overlooked in that pursuit.
†
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Seigve,
Please clarify the two paragraphs following "a stone was cut out—but not by power" (Daniel 2:34, 45). Are you saying "not by power," (NIV), or "without hands, (KJV), "in 2:34, 45, (H3028, yad ,) is referring to the same power, ( yad ), Jesus or God, in 12:7?
That is a just-so story, a riff of a Graham Maxwell just-so made up story, which was a riff of Ellen White’s just-so story, which was a riff of John Milton’s epic poem, located on a famous 19th century “high shelf.”
Unfortunately, many Sabbatarian authors…of the past 150 years, [Ellen White included] seem to have absorbed these embellished versions and incorporated them into their own writings, rather than return to the simplicity of what is actually in the Bible….
In each of these scenarios painted by the authors, virtually none of the embellishments have any support in the Bible account at all.
http://www.ellen-white-truth.com/story-of-redemption-paradise-lost/
What is actually in the Bible:
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?.
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
—Revelation 5
There is absolutely no support for that in the Bible text, Sigve.
That, not “historicism,” is the problem here.
I have a high school diploma from a very sketchy rural Adventist academy in the 1960s, but I can read.
None of this has anything whatsoever to do with Auschwitz.
Overt Adventist collaboration with the Third Reich has a straightforward connection to the Holocaust:
Fatal Flirting: The Nazi State and the Seventh-day Adventist Church https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1042&context=jams
A fictional “predicament” that God supposedly got in with a heavenly council has no correlation with the Holocaust, far less Revelation 5, and is a completely ungrounded fable.
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[If anyone thinks I enjoy doing this, you would be wrong.]
The Bible states exactly why John was weeping:
Your argument is centered around shifting the focus from “the Lamb that was slain” and substituting a fictional “predicament” God supposedly found Himself in and a purported “crisis” in a heavenly council.
And this supposed predicament and crisis can only be solved by that SDA “West Coast” iteration of Last Generation Theology (LGT).
This is a replacement and negation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and in no way can I see this as benign, Sigve.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
—Revelation 22
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Well stated Cassie! Create a strawman argument and assume it is true. Detract from the true meaning by added specious claims.
Actually, I think he & Maxwell are in their mind countering LGT BUT create another animal just as harmful to the everlasting gospel of Christ. Both ignore JBF"alone" for different reasons.
Regards
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My personal, undisguised obsession is with the book of Hebrews and the Gospels.
Actually, for me, Hebrews is incomparably more relevant than either Daniel or Revelation. Because it actually reveals something…
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The theme and focus is on the Triumph of the Lamb. The subset is the forces that seek to detour those that trust in that victory by death or the threat of death. The call is to endure as the three worthies of Daniel. Even so come Lord Jesus.
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What BOTH Daniel and Revelation reveal
[along with the Call of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and others]
that God is in Control no matter what men design to do. Whether these men
are good men or evil men.
Also, that God works with individuals who may or not make up a community.
Many times these persons were a Community Of ONE. But they had an impact
on Empires – whether Secular Empire, or Religious Empire imitating secular empire
methods and ideals.
The 3 men and Daniel had an impact on Nebuchadnezzar who wrote a whole chapter
in the Book of Daniel. Had an impact on Darius and Cyrus in Daniel 6. “Peace and
prosperity to you [every race, language, nation throughout the world], I decree that everyone in my kingdom should tremble and fear before the God of Daniel. He is the living God, will endure
for ever, kingdom will never be destroyed, rule will never end. Rescues and saves His
people, performs miraculous signs and wonders in heaven and on earth. [Lastly] rescued
Daniel from the power of the lions.”
Martin Luther changing his life vocation brought about the beginnings of Religious Liberty in
the world, and impacted the United States.
John and Charles Wesley desiring a greater connection with God began with a small group
of men. Now the World Wide Methodist Denomination. It was not planned by them. Just a
humble group meeting together.
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Perhaps, but in both cases human beings are recruited to “rescue the reputation of God,” in a complete inversion of the Gospel via fanciful storytelling.
Adventists have been flying under the radar for a very long time, in my opinion.
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Yep. This has never made any sense to me…nor can I find anything in Scripture that speaks to this. If someone has a reference, I’d be glad to see it. This idea, once again, seems to make Adventism the center of everything, not God. Ultimately, they seem to be the “Saviors”, as it were.
Do you mean in how they present themselves to the Christian world? If so, I agree. Very stealthy in presenting the “under the radar” beliefs and history.
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Hi Cassie,
Well said, and may I add a little. This is an example of the “fanciful theories” that arise when the church adopted the position that “the daily” represented Christ’s ministry. Rome and the crucifixion of Christ is missing in Daniel 8, a Papal host controls Christ’s ministry in the MHP of the heavenly sanctuary, and the 2,300 years of 8:14 applies to the persecuting rule of the Papacy!! The logical conclusion, when the daily is applied to Christ’s mimistry, n the basis that it “is the most popular” position, cf. below.
The Little Horn – Part 1 ( Dan. 8:9, 10, 23-25 ). — After a discussion on how this little horn would oppose truth, it is revealed that it would be allowed to do so for “ two thousand and three hundred days ; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan. 8:14).” Teachers SS Quarterly, April-June, 2002, pp. 44-45.
The angel does not identify this “little horn” but provides a description of its work (vss. 9-12, 23-25) . But the angel has already pronounced that this prophecy is for the end time; and in Daniel 8:14 he says that this desolation of the sacrifice will last for 2,300 prophetic years . Hence this power cannot be Antiochus Epiphanies or the Roman armies. Adult Teachers Quarterly, July-August, 2006, p. 57.
Only after 2300 evenings and mornings will the destructive rampage of the little horn stop , an interpretation later offered by the angel Gabriel: “yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power” (verse 25). The end of the little horn will not result from natural causes, but from an extraordinary act of judgment on God’s part, closing the circle of history (Dan. 2:34; 11:45.). Doukhan, Secrets of Daniel, p. 127.
We remember that chapter 7 located the judgment “after a time, times and half a time,” that is, after 1798. Chapter 8 is even more explicit: the reign of the little horn lasts 2300 evenings and mornings. — a day that we should understand in the prophetic sense as a year ( equalling 2300 years ). Doukhan, Secrets of Daniel, p. 131.
The tāmîd, *“the continual,” designates the daily work of the priest in the holy place. Since the “Prince of hosts” is a heavenly being (cf. Joshua 5:14) **the sanctuary in Daniel 8:9–14 must be the heavenly one.***REALLY? This position was adopted immediately after Glacier View on the basis that it was the most popular position. The ECW counsel to our leading men, “to study it out,” remains, and as a result, verses 9-11 are no longer considered to apply to Rome , the crucifixion of Christ, or to the destruction of Jerusalem the place of the earthly temple. As a result, this view considers the 2,300 years of Daniel 8:14 applies to the "persecuting rule of the Papacy. cf below.
The Little Horn – Part 1 ( Dan. 8:9, 10, 23-25 ). — After a discussion on how this little horn would oppose truth, it is revealed that it would be allowed to do so for “ two thousand and three hundred days ; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan. 8:14).” Teachers SS Quarterly, April-June, 2002, pp. 44-45.
The angel does not identify this “little horn” but provides a description of its work (vss. 9-12, 23-25) . But the angel has already pronounced that this prophecy is for the end time; and in Daniel 8:14 he says that this desolation of the sacrifice will last for 2,300 prophetic years . Hence this power cannot be Antiochus Epiphanies or the Roman armies. Adult Teachers Quarterly, July-August, 2006, p. 57.
The Little Horn. 5. And finally, as in chapter 7, the little horn succeeds the reign of beasts and remains the sole power . Undoubtedly it is the same as the one encountered in chapter 7. Doukhan, Secrets of Daniel, p. 124.
Only after 2300 evenings and mornings will the destructive rampage of the little horn stop , an interpretation later offered by the angel Gabriel: “yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power” (verse 25). The end of the little horn will not result from natural causes, but from an extraordinary act of judgment on God’s part, closing the circle of history (Dan. 2:34; 11:45.). Doukhan, Secrets of Daniel, p. 127.
We remember that chapter 7 located the judgment “after a time, times and half a time,” that is, after 1798. Chapter 8 is even more explicit: the reign of the little horn lasts 2300 evenings and mornings. — a day that we should understand in the prophetic sense as a year ( equalling 2300 years ). Doukhan, Secrets of Daniel, p. 131.
Thus if we count 2300 years from 457 B.C.E., we reach the year 1844 . But there is nothing more suspect and disturbing than a date, especially in religious matters. We feel more comfortable when religious truth remains within the limits of the spiritual domain. Doukhan, Secrets of Daniel, p. 152.
The main concern of this vision is the attitude of the little horn toward the sanctuary and the priestly work of the Prince (verses 11, 12). It attacks the host of heaven, defeats them (verse 10), and goes after the Prince and the sanctuary. This spiritual attack is described in military terms. The tāmîd is taken away from the Prince, and the foundation/place of the sanctuary is cast down and rejected. Then , in a spirit of rebellion/transgression (verse 12), the little horn sets up its own force to control the tāmîd. The “truth” associated with the sanctuary is obscured by this anti-God power (cf. Dan. 7:25). The cultic language used by Daniel makes it clear that the little horn does not contaminate the sanctuary ; the attack on the sanctuary profanes it (cf. Dan. 11:31), but does not contaminate it. The sanctuary is treated by the horn-power as a common place. The little horn somehow affects the Prince’s tāmîd, or continual mediation in the holy place . The question of the horn’s interference with the mediatorial work of the Prince in the Most Holy Place is addressed in Daniel 8:13, 14 . 12BC. 394-395.
- The daily refers to the continual priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. — Both the second and the third interpretations have been held by various able expositors within the Advent movement . 4BC 842-843.
- “But then, the little horn (8:9) does something that no other kingdom has done: It goes against the Prince of the Host in the heavenly sanctuary.” 2002 Teachers SS Quarterly, p. 41.
- “The same picture is used in Daniel 8. The little horn attacks the heavenly host and casts “down some of the host” . (vs 10); it then goes into the sanctuary where he “exalted himself as the Prince of the host ” (vs. 11 , NKJV). The little horn is attacking heaven and a ministry in heaven . p. 44. — 2. A host is placed over the daily ministry. Hence the text says that the horn misappropriated the daily ministry of Christ and then “set over,” or appointed, its own host to control or minister it .” 2002 Teachers SS Quarterly, p. 48.
Question: How did a Papal Host enter heaven, after Satan and his angels were cast out!!
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My ignorance is only exceeded by my ignorance in these matters, Ranald.
I don’t possess the intellectual equipment to sort all this out.
It’s paradoxical.
The “spiritual domain” has a nasty way of spilling over into the temporo-spatial realm.
1844 was interesting.
2019 will be interesting.
Wow, I had forgotten how rude and caustic this discussion forum can be. But that is beside the point.
Sigve, I so appreciate all that you have researched in Revelation as you are the lone voice pushing back against the overwhelming pressure of dark opinions and teachings that infect nearly every other commentator on this. Your insights have been most valuable to me, not because I embrace them blindly but because they confirm and deepen what I have been discovering in this book myself for around 5 years. I wish there was any way to have an unbiased discussion about these things some time.
The key to your insights and interpretations is the most important one, overlooked by nearly everyone else. Approaching the study of this book can only safely reveal truth when one sticks tenaciously to the criteria laid out in the very first verse - it must synchronize perfectly with a God who looks like Jesus.
In my personal intense study of this book over the past several years I came to believe that the seals represent a perfect (7) system of lies that prevented anyone from discovering the truth hidden inside that alone could vindicate God’s reputation. Only the Lamb and all He represents, especially in attitude and method, has enough convincing power (7 horns) that can leverage open every lie about God the enemy has used to hold His government under suspicion and doubt all this time.
I believe the seals begin with unmasking the most extreme deception harder to uncover than any other and progresses to the most obvious one. Thus the white horse rider masquerades as the good guy while failing to reflect the humility and methods of the hero, the Lamb.
Thank-you so much Sigve for your wonderful contributions that are bringing so much light into the open that is adding to the weight of glory from the 4th angel. I copy every article, and if it were possible I would love to access the material you have to cut out.
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Cassie,
A papal host has no more entered heaven, or killed any of the people there, or controls Christ’s ministry there, than I can fly to the moon. A Papal host controls the ministry in heaven!! Little wonder John says the messages of the little book must be proclaimed “again.” Quite different to will “continue” to be proclaimed until the end.
I believe that is what David Gates and others are preaching, much to the consternation of Mark Finley, Doug Batchelor, and others.
Adding:
“I believe that is what David Gates and others are preaching, much to the consternation of Mark Finley and others.”
While we have men who are doing a good work and have much truth, that does not mean they have “all truth.”. John say "again, " and the SOP challenges us all with statements such as the following.
“We are altogether too narrow in our plans. We need to be broader minded. God wants us to carry out in our work for Him the principles of truth and righteousness. His work is to go forward in cities and towns and villages. What we need is a deeper understanding of the word of God. We need to keep the principles of that word in mind, that we may proclaim them in their purity.” {6MR 329.2} (emphasis mine)
" When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. They will be given such glimpses of the open gates of heaven that heart and mind will be impressed with the character that all must develop in order to realize the blessedness which is to be the reward of the pure in heart. The Lord will bless all who will seek humbly and meekly to understand that which is revealed in the Revelation. This book contains so much that is large with immortality and full of glory that all who read and search it earnestly receive the blessing to those “that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein.” One thing will certainly be understood from the study of Revelation–that the connection between God and His people is close and decided." {FLB 345.3}
Let us give more time to the study of the Bible. We do not understand the Word as we should. The book of Revelation opens with an injunction to us to understand the instruction that it contains. . . . When we . . . understand what this book means to us, there will be seen among us a great revival. —".
I look forward to that day.
Who is sufficient for these things?
Who is sufficient for these things?