Timeout: “The Smoke of Their Torment”


(Johnny Carson) #82

Steve – Thanks for sharing that.

I don’t necessarily have an alternative suggestion to the traditional teaching, but I like yours if indeed men and women, boys and girls are actually destroyed at all. My finite, human psyche can sometimes like the idea of horrible punishment, say for the individuals who sexually abused me as a boy, as an example, but for me to go there in my mind has the end result of destroying my personal peace, and I don’t like that. AT. ALL.

I will leave the answer entirely to God, trusting God has a Godly solution to the crime and punishment problem. I know what she’s done for me, even with my often purposeful missteps that have hurt others, sometimes quite badly. Why would I want to take that gift of forgiveness and grace that’s been afforded to me away from others? Well, I don’t, so I leave it to God to figure out. They surely knows far better than I.


(Steve Mga) #83

Kim –
Don’t FORGET Mary Baker Eddy at the time that SDAs were promoting Battle
Creek Sanitarium in the 1860’s and later built a larger edifice to accommodate
more patients. And John Harvey was a physician-surgeon there.


(Kim Green) #84

Oh…wow. I actually didn’t know that Steve…thanks for mentioning! Another female that started a new religion at the time.

BTW…what do you believe about John Harvey? Was he rail-roaded or was departing from the good ship SDA??


(Johnny Carson) #85

Yes, I’ve noted, and been a bit amazed at that little factoid. Definitely something in the water, eh?

And of course, Ellen was very vocal in her criticism of the Fox Sisters. Makes one wonder if there might have been some personal animosity or something going on behind the scenes.


(Kim Green) #86

Strangely enough…I don’t recall anything she said against Mary B. Eddy.


(Steve Mga) #87

He had a VERY forceful personality. For a number of Adult years he did
have influence on the Whites and later Ellen.
I REALLY wish I had access to his book. The past several years [especially
after reading Original Blessing by Matthew Fox] I have wondered if Kellogg
was REALLY discussing Pantheism or if he was REALLY discussing Panentheism,
which is totally different, but THEY had problems seeing the difference.
And so as a pretext, to mute his authoritarian figure, they excommunicated him.
I always felt it was way more than just his book.
If you recall the 3-member group of the General Conference did not enjoy Ellen’s
interference either. That is why they sent her to the Australian Penal Colony for
10 years. But she got back just in time for the 1901 General Conference when the
Unions were set up, and the authority of the GC leadership with diminished.
Unfortunately our current group is trying to reverse many of those votes, and give
much more POWER to the Silver Springs employees, similar to the 1900 situation.

As an aside – Women Ordination came up then[1901]. It was voted to send it to “committee”,
which was an All Men group. And has NEVER seen the light of day since, even though
through the years, many have attempted to bring it up for discussion. FINALLY some of
the Unions saw THEY had to do something about it and DID. You have seen the reactions
of President Wilson and his advisors and how they handled the GC2015.
And now they have “grave consequences” hanging over their heads.


(Kim Green) #88

Oh…I will look for the online link to his book! I will send it to you when I find it again.

Yes, a sad state of affairs in Adventism now. :open_mouth::zipper_mouth_face:


(Kim Green) #89

Here is the link to the book “The Living Temple”:

Enjoy, and let me know what conclusion you come to.


(Patrick Travis) #90

Graham and Pine Knoll ministries (please correct if sp.wrong) support this view. Graham said his view was bigger than moral Influence but the similarites are many.
As I have said before both this view and LGT deny the classical Protestant view of JBF.


(Patrick Travis) #91

I would suggest to you Kellogg was a pantheist in some of his views.


(C. Evans) #92

The movie The Road to Wellvill with Mathew Brodrick is so funny. You can see the SDA influence throughout the movie.


(Patrick Travis) #93

Kellogg reportedly loved his daily enemas.:grin:


(Johnny Carson) #94

He did indeed enjoy the kink. I mean what’s a guy to do who’s sworn off sex?

Or was that W. H. Kellogg…?


(Cfowler) #95

It was JH Kellogg…what a strange little man he was!


(Johnny Carson) #96

Was pretty sure it was. Strange doesn’t begin to cover his idiosyncratic state! LOL


(Kim Green) #97

Will watch it soon! It should be on either netflix or amazon…thanks. :slight_smile:


(Kim Green) #98

It was John H…lol So strange that he even married given that they reportedly didn’t have sex. They did go on to adopt children, however.


(Kim Green) #99

A wonderful mix of religious SDA sentiment, Victorian morality…and last, but not least- eccentric genius! What could go wrong with this cocktail? :rofl:


(Johnny Carson) #100

…tongue planted firmly in cheek, I assume? LOL


(Kim Green) #101

…no, soldered in cheek…:stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: