Timeout: “The Smoke of Their Torment”

(Cfowler) #122

I think that there is so much beyond our little pea brains! But, yes…it’s fun to explore and contemplate the mysteries.

(Patrick Travis) #123

Nice concepts but suggest that
Spirituality is based more on the cognitive AND emotive. Scientific, at least as we comprehend it should be simply cognitive repeatable evidence.

(Patrick Travis) #124

Cocaine use to be in tropical anesthectic’s used by dentist for numbing effect.


Belief has to be prior. What is the point of the Bible if you don’t believe? And if you have an independent experience of the Divine, the Bible is at most a source of ideas. That person who believes that they have a personal relationship with or experience of God is in a position to falsify at least Biblical interpretive frameworks: “the God I know would not do such a thing” (perhaps) leading to the conclusion that either the interpretation is wrong or the book is unhelpful.

(Stephen Terry) #126

To say that someone “is in a position to falsify” is implying that they would do so. While this may be anecdotally true for some, it cannot be demonstrated to be true for all or even a majority. It is a statement based on fear of losing control rather than on trust in the power of a personal relationship with God. Joseph had no Bible, yet he remained faithful to a fault. Daniel had no institutional church, yet he remained personally faithful. The Bible itself provides repeated examples of powerful faith not dependent on biblical writ. Jesus said that the scriptures testify about him. In other words, he was saying that something greater was in him. But we are too often satisfied with the lesser testimony rather than the object of that testimony. One cannot contain God in the pages of a book. The book is only a tool to enlightenment. It is not the enlightenment itself.

(Patrick Travis) #127

I think you would agree that the way we check “the Spirits” is by the written Word. Paul asked the parchaments to be brought 2 Tim.4:13
Specific Revelation has been revealed by the prophets before us and is brought to our minds through the Spirit and memory of our reading.
Many Spirits and “mystics” have gone out in the world and Scripture through the Spirit discerns the truth in them for us.
I know what you mean and we get many impressions during life but major Spiritual ones are verified by what is written.

(Johnny Carson) #131

I think man’s understanding, in comparison to the wisdom of the creator, is rather puny at best. :blush:

(Robert King) #133

you must have one of those funny bibles, not a KJV, please read Genesis chapter
2 with a King James Version bible.

(Cfowler) #134

“3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.”

Does this day correspond with the Saturday on the Gregorian calendar?

Did Israel determine the 7th day by the lunar calendar? If so, this isn’t the same day as Saturday on the Gregorian calendar, or the very same 7th day from creation.

Just asking your POV. As I said, I don’t have a dog in the fight, as far as observing the Sabbath.


On Genesis chapter 1 and the seven days of creation, how are they 7 literal 24hr earth days and yet God created the sun on the fourth day?

Some people claim that the seven days of creation were not 7 literal 24hr earth days. I have heard of an interpretation that equates each day of creation with 1000 yrs. They claim that their interpretation is based on Genesis 2:17 where God told Adam that he will die in the day he eats the forbidden fruit, but Adam ate the fruit and lived 930 years.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 5:5 (KJV)
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

(Robert King) #136

“Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.” Exodus 31:13. Here in the verse you see that God is saying that with the Sabbath observance also comes his power to sanctify you, so I can assure that you do have a dog in this fight.

The 7th day Sabbath in on a 7 day continuous repeating cycle, it would not be impacted by changing the calendar by adding days.

(Cfowler) #137

So, are you saying that the Saturday/Sabbath that is on our present day calendar is the very same day from Genesis 2? And, as I asked previously, would a seventh day (from a different starting point than Sunday on our calendar) be okay to observe and keep? Does it have to be Saturday on the Gregorian calendar?

The Sabbath was given to Israel, a sign of the covenant God made with Israel, the Old Covenant. The Sabbath isn’t a sign given to Gentiles who are under the New Covenant. But, that’s a whole other discussion that has been hashed and rehashed…

(Robert King) #138

We’re spiritual Israel today and this time God wrote his law on the surface of our hearts instead of on stone, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16.

The law was not nailed to the cross, it’s been put into us by the HS by our faith that God will do this.

(Cfowler) #139

You seem to be ignoring my main question…is the only “proper” day to observe Sabbath, on Saturday of the Gregorian calendar. Is it the same 7th day from Genesis (has it been kept on exactly the very same Saturday on which you observe it now)? And, if a 7th day is observed, not according to the Gregorian calendar, but if every 7th day in a person’s life is observed as a Sabbath, would that be okay?

(Stephen Terry) #140

I think it is important to differentiate Spirits and “mystics” from personal revelation. Even if we do so, that idea may carry some concern for you, but it may be helpful to understand that the mere fact that counterfeits exist could be construed that the genuine still exists as well. I would hate to interpret the Bible in such a way as to eliminate that possibility. Remember the Pharisees and priests felt very comfortable using the Scriptures to prove that Jesus was not genuine. God communicated through personal revelation for thousands of years prior to the Pentateuch, and had it not been for that personal revelation, even the Bible as we know it would not exist.

(Patrick Travis) #141

I am not of the opinion that we have new revelation today. We may at times have new interpretations of biblical text.
No one is outside the scrutiny of scripture to test what they/individual feels might be new revelation.
We are not Christ and He was the final and ultimate revelation. The NT describes Christ’s meaning and purpose as was foretold with incompletness in the OT as they did not fully understand the things of which they prophesied of concerning Christ.


Isn’t this question best addressed to which day that Jesus identified as the Sabbath? Did the succeeding generations lose track?

Which day of the week was Jesus crucified? Which day of the week did He rest in the tomb? Which day of the week did Jesus rise from the dead?

Jews, Catholics and Protestants, as well as Muslims, all seem to agree on the current weekly cycle and which days are which, back into their history (Friday, Saturday, Sunday).


Which day of the week was Jesus crucified? Which day of the week did He rest in the tomb? Which day of the week did Jesus rise from the dead?

The above three questions on the crucifixion of Jesus cannot be answered because John’s account differs with the accounts given in Mark, Mathew, and Luke. In John Jesus dies before the Passover feast.



MAT 27:62 “Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,” (Matt27:62.KJV)
“In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” (Matt28:1.KJV)

“And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,” (Mark15:42.KJV)

“And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.” (Luke23:54.KJV)

“The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.” (John19:31.KJV)
“There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand. The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.” (John19:42&20:1.KJV)


In John the last supper is in John 13:1-17. In John Jesus does not eat the passover.

John 18:28 (KJV)
Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 19:14 (KJV)
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

For a more detailed study on the passover and crucifixion read, “The Chronology Of The Last Supper” by Barry D. Smith https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/wtj/chronology_smith.pdf