Timeout: “The Smoke of Their Torment”

(John) #146

A description is given in the book of Job describing how Job and his innocent family were caught up in the cosmic conflict between good and evil, as we all are. God’s behaviour in allowing suffering and death to come to Job and his family may be seen by some as unethical and immoral behaviour by God. However those who hold this view ignore the bigger picture of a God who’s governing principles are love and freedom. The governing principles of God have been challenged by Satan from the beginning. God’s method of handling the cosmic conflict is by way of revelation - revelation of Himself and revelation of Satan, thus allowing His creatures to choose between right and wrong, selflessness and selfishness, life and death.

This world, and to a lesser extent this universe, is not the place God intended it to be. Life on this planet is as it is because of choices made by Lucifer and his influence on Adam and Eve.

Whilst the events on this planet are far from satisfactory, particularly from God’s point of view, the cancer of selfishness has mercifully been restricted to this planet. Dealing with cancer is not easy. There is often sever suffering to be endured before the body is restored to full health. All of Mankind has been infected by this cancer. As individual ‘cells’ of the body we are offered treatment to cure us. We choose to accept or reject God’s healing. Accepting healing from God does not guarantee a life without suffering and death. Like Job, friends of God consider it an honour to reveal His glory and contradict ‘The Lie’ by the life they live despite the suffering that comes from living in a sin infected world.

Those who were drowned in the Flood were given the choice to live by simply getting aboard the ark. They chose not to accept this offer and died the first death as a consequence of their choice. However the people who died a terrible death in the Flood will be resurrected, some to live for ever and some to live a short time to confirm that there was nothing God could do to save them. God will not / can not force his children to choose life. Those who choose eternal death have been offered eternal life. Satan offers no choice - only suffering and death.

As the book of Revelation points out the perfection of the Creation and the true knowledge of God is brought about by the revelations made by the Cosmic Conflict and The Slaughtered Lamb, Jesus the Revealer

Thank you Sigve for you continued revelation of our wonderful God.

(Cfowler) #147

The question for Sabbatarians might be, did Jesus follow the Gregorian calendar? Or the lunar calendar? These are very different calendars.

Taken from this site: https://ffoz.org/discover/messianic-jewish-calendar/is-the-jewish-calendar-wrong.html

In the days of the apostles, the Sanhedrin had the authority to determine the calendar.

In the Apostolic Era, various splinter groups such as the Essenes determined their own calendars independently of the Sanhedrin, but in so doing, they severed themselves from the broader community of Israel and made themselves irrelevant. Yeshua and the apostles, however, followed the calendar established by the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem and thereby celebrated the festivals along with the rest of nation. If that was not the case, the New Testament would have made note of the deviation.

This site has great information regarding the Jewish/Biblical way of reckoning time…it’s very interesting, brief, and packs a lot of info in a short piece. I would be interested in your opinion, or others opinion. I don’t keep a Sabbath (lunar or Gregorian). But, it is interesting to see the way Israel kept time, especially in comparison to the Gregorian calendar. After looking into this, it seems beyond a doubt that the new moon was the beginning of the month, and the 1st day was the day after the new moon sighting. Modern Israel still uses the lunar calendar for their holy days, although the nation follows the Gregorian calendar for all other things. Otherwise they would not be in sync with the rest of the world.

Bottom line…let’s just say for discussion sake, that the lunar calendar is the way the ancient nation of Israel kept time, that the true Sabbath day is determined by the sighting of the New Moon and the count for the days begins there. This would clearly not line up with the Gregorian calendar. So, should the Sabbath be kept the way Israel was commanded to do, or is the Gregorian Calendar just fine, or is every seventh day fine, no matter where you start the count. The SDA church is built on the Sabbath being required for New Covenant/Gentile believers, and the final test being about the Sabbath, so is it important to be keeping it in the authentic way of Israel, or not?

BTW, I’m not trying to be argumentative. Just a discussion about Sabbath.

(Kim Green) #149

What does “new revelation” mean to you?

(Patrick Travis) #150

I believe special Revelation ended with the biblical canon with nothing needed to be added. Various interpretations of that canon have continued.

(Kim Green) #151

I am just trying to understand some of your terminology/concepts:

What is “Revelation”?

What is “biblical canon”?


(Patrick Travis) #152

Kim, in simple terms the writers of the OT and NT were inspired of God for His purposes. The last messages exalted Christ in canon. These were recognized by the church councils
for their content. Nothing else needs to be added including EGW.

(Patrick Travis) #153

PS. Do your homework… .the 66.

(Kim Green) #154

Ok…this clarifies things. Thank-you.

(Patrick Travis) #155

:+1:, The Protestant view of canon. The present 66. That doesnt mean there is no secular truth to be gleaned from the others. It means by the church bodies they were in some way not the same.

(Kim Green) #156

This sounds a bit rude…you can bring my attention by stating things other ways.

(Kim Green) #157

Yes…it clarifies things. I understood. Thanks.

(Patrick Travis) #158

Thanks Kim, just dont like being played. You know what the canon is. Its every Bible translation in print normally in the US, Kjv.,Niv,Nasb . ONE GENERALLY seeks others for additional books.

(Kim Green) #159

Patrick…I asked for what YOU meant by the terms you used (which shouldn’t have been difficult to answer). Instead, you decided to play games with the answers. So be it.

I have noticed that you tend to be “dismissive” when you either don’t want to be bothered or wish to show some dominance. I am tired of these attitudes so I will not bother to communicate with you any further.

(Patrick Travis) #160

Ok, that is fine with me. But, Kim come on, you know what Canon is and special Revelation. AND, you know I know.

(Kim Green) #161

Yes, Patrick…you DO know best always. Just proved my point…please carry on as usual.

(Patrick Travis) #162

Thanks Kim, understand the method. Just obvious. If you choose to have genuine conversation let me know.

(Patrick Travis) #163

KIM, Let me put in another way. If you George and Elmer( at times) want to interject you psychology/ psychiatrist training, fine. BUT, if you are asking about theology and dentistry those are my areas of formal training. I will be glad to answer true questions of inquiry. But not loaded questions below ones ability to know.


Hey look who joined the club! No need to worry about that Sunday law thing now, right?

(Patrick Travis) #165

Uh oh! And, he didn’t even avoid shabbat.


Dear niteguy2,
Heartfelt agreement. I do believe that we can share God’s grief and God’s grieving, and enter into His suffering. Somewhere Scripture says (my memory’s paraphrase of some of it goes): but then–if I carried out My full wrath–I would lose them, “the very people I created!” Is not this God’s anguish from the beginning–He doesn’t want to lose us.
So Jesus stands “in the gap” for God and for us; God Himself dies on the cross for us; He is our Peace offering; the Redeemer gives his life for His friends; Godhead risks eternal loss of Himself rather than us–What wondrous Love!
Christ on the cross cries out, My God, My God, why have you abandoned Me?! The broken-hearted Son in the bosom of the suffering Father encircled by the trembling wings of the wounded Spirit Dove-Eagle declares the pain that has been the experience of Divinity, humanity, and of all creation–the separation angst. (Excuse me for finding it necessary to run to poetic lengths, in extolling our awesome, infinite God.)
In Ezekiel Deity exclaims: I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Turn from your ways! Why will you die?! So God’s own right arm saved Him and us in this dreadful dilemma in a way that only the all-wise, all-powerful, all-loving Creator could devise and carry out. Praised be God!