Toward an Adventist Theology of Social Justice


(Kim Green) #124

"Why not just say you like social justice because you believe socialism is the better method of governance."

Because I don’t in particular. But I do recognize that speech changes with values and the “Christian” US is fading fast- for better or for worse. BTW…I am politically a Centrist/Libertarian which is rare indeed in this polarized political system. I pragmatically recognize that some form of Socialism is going to be an inevitable conclusion.


#125

Indeed this is a good description of the blooming US national debt upon which most other nations would never be able to support or find acceptable.


#126

Thank you for taking the time to write such a well thought and articulated article.

Based on analysis of some commentators the principles you describe present a significant challenge for them. These principles are what the Bible teaches and that the characters of those fit for heaven must possess in order to be happy there.


#127

You are so right. If our brethren will not believe the Bible, that our mission in these days in not social justice as the world adopts it, then perhaps a few might still believe the SOP.

“Those who feel called out to join the movement in favor of woman’s rights and the so-called dress reform might as well sever all connection with the third angel’s message. The spirit which attends the one cannot be in harmony with the other. The Scriptures are plain upon the relations and rights of men and women.” 1T 421.

It was spiritualists in those days who adopted these issues, and today it appears to be the same in essence.


(Joselito Coo) #128

Authors of primary articles who engage with commenters are much appreciated. Thank you, Jason. I’ve learned much from the exchanges and clarification.

I believe what you are trying to do is reflect on the intersection of religion and society. Adventist medicine? The science and art of medicine as it impacts Adventist concerns. Whether it’s social justice, biology, philosophy or medicine, we’re not alone in these conversations.

This piece by Ron Lawson might be of additional interest.


(JA ORourke) #129

Thank you for this info


#130

Are you saying that this advice, written for the 19th Century is for completely differing issues today?

Just what are you referring to today? Equality of pay for men and women is spiritualism? Women owning property and having status in court for custody of their children is spiritualism?


(JA ORourke) #131

EGW also supported positive social political action:

Vote for virtue

“There is a cause for the moral paralysis upon society. Our laws sustain an evil which is sapping their very foundations. Many deplore the wrongs which they know exist, but consider themselves free from all responsibility in the matter. This cannot be. Every individual exerts an influence in society. In our favored land, every voter has some voice in determining what laws shall control the nation. Should not that influence and that vote be cast on the side of temperance and virtue?” (1881)

“Our law-makers have endeavored to restrict the evils of intemperance by licensing the sale of intoxicating liquors. The result of their efforts is before us. It is evident to every intelligent observer that inebriety with its train of crime and misery is steadily increasing. The victims of alcohol are more numerous today than at any former period. The politicians’ plan of licensing “for the public good” has proved itself a curse.

“What can be done to press back the inflowing tide of evil? Let laws be enacted and rigidly enforced prohibiting the sale and the use of ardent spirits as a beverage. Let every effort be made to encourage the inebriate’s return to temperance and virtue. But even more than this is needed to banish the curse of inebriety from our land. Let the appetite for intoxicating liquors be removed, and their use and sale is at an end. This work must to a great degree devolve upon parents. Let them, by observing strict temperance themselves, give the right stamp of character to their children, and then educate and train these children, in the fear of God, to habits of self-denial and self-control. Youth who have been thus trained will have moral stamina to resist temptation, and to control appetite and passion. They will stand unmoved by the folly and dissipation that are corrupting society.” (1881)


(JA ORourke) #132

Equality is not spiritualism. That spiritualists took of the fight for equality is a condemnation of Christians living out and theologically enforcing a fallen status quo ( patriarchal, paternal, racist, classist ), and living kingdom ethics and values.

The evidence of a desire of equality and justice within society is not evidence of spiritualism.


(Steve Mga) #133

Perhaps our Eschatology threw EGW’s words out the window.
AND, Dr. Bob, his co-alcoholic friend, and a Catholic Nun-nurse HAD to cofound
Alcoholics Anonymous which is a world-wide program now and one of the
LARGEST CHURCHES in the world.
With many branches – Narcotics Anonymous, a number of Family support groups.


(Patrick Travis) #134

Thank goodness that sex wasn’t to be removed since some may misuse it like alcohol. :grinning:
The bible doesn’t teach the necessity of total abstinence from “spirits.”


(Steve Mga) #135

Testimonies Volume 1
Is materials written by Ellen White PRIOR to 1868.
Before and During the Civil War Era, and the heading West of the US population.
Control of the production of Spirits was NOT to keep them from being produced.
If one recalls the “Whisky Tax” and the rebellion that occurred over that Tax during
George Washington’s days.
ALL TAXES are NOT for control of production and use. ALL Taxes are for the Control
so the State and Federal Government can have a source of Income from the Citizens.
The MORE Licenses for the sale of Beer, Wine, Liquor, the more money for local, state,
governmental agencies.
The more Beer, Wine, Liquor is sold the more “pennies” for each Unit for local, state,
governmental agencies.
Once in a while the citizens rebel, like here in Bibb-Macon, GA some days ago when the
county wanted to put a small tax on Liquor-by-the-drink [beer and wine excluded], and raise
the Liquor License fees.
Actually, we have MORE public drinking now in downtown than we did 4-5 years ago with
the addition of 4 store-front breweries–food places. All with outside seating.


(William Noel) #136

That’s the World Bank’s evaluation. The Euro may be the common currency but each nation has it’s own economy that is measured in a number of ways. Greece has been an economic “basket case” for decades because of it’s generous social programs where the costs far exceed the revenues need to pay for them and Italy has been following in the same path.


(William Noel) #137

It is the World Bank’s evaluation of the national economies in Greece and Italy that declares their currency “almost worthless” in those nations. The Number One contributor to high inflation, declining personal savings, rising bank interest rates, high unemployment, etc. is their high pay-out rate for social programs vs. the amount of revenues they have coming into their national treasuries to pay the bills.

I’m with you on the US Dollar. We’re in far better shape than Italy, Greece and most of Europe and a lot of nations in Asia. But the nation’s rising debt driven by ever-increasing spending on social programs is weakening our economic strength. Next year, for the first time, the U.S. Government will spend more to pay interest on the national debt than it will on defense.


#138

I don’t know why some don’t seem to get the point, but focus on the incidentals, and if they don’t see the incidentals fit in every particular, then its not their lack of perception, but with the sender’s fault. When we look at Bible subjects for example, we know that King Saul should have stayed away from the witch of Endor. He knew how God regarded such practices, and its being contrary to “the dead know not anything.” Yet the moment he set forth on that path, he was headed for spiritualism. If given all the facts, even a child will get the warning message of Saul’s demise.

Regarding the 1T 421 statement, women’s rights is but one of the points of this account from which we should draw an object lesson. The other point is joined by an “AND” meaning there are two points of interest in the statement. It means that sometimes these two may be together, and sometimes alone. But the same lessons to be drawn from each, apply whether together or not.

I remember listening to a speaker (SDA) who was in the new age movement before he saw what was wrong with it. He recalled that while he was in the movement, you could have presented fact after fact, to be all denied because he just couldn’t see it at the time he was in the movement. This same malady affects many Christians also. And as the predicted spiritualism is increasing in the world, and in the church, few will recognize it until too late. The omega of apostasy will be a form of spiritualism as the former was.

Many (but not all probably) who decry the Final Generation Theology, are in the midst of spiritualism without realizing it. A clue might be their snide remarks on this subject, a persistent refusal to look at the Scripture on the theme, and a collective back patting of how they are all right and the others are wrong. Praising each other for shutting down the subject with their remarks that belittle others. There is little Christianity in their churlish remarks.

This is but one example of the danger in spiritualism’s far reaching deceptions. This problem has been described in the passage of Scripture by Jesus in LUKE 11:23-26. If we are in a Christ-less religion, although despite our claims that we are, and soooo loving and tolerant, then those in the spiritual world have free rein to come in and take possession of us, like it or not.

Again, we find this described by the apostle in a process of deception few recognize:

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 THESS 2:9-11.

The text gives the source of the lying wonders; and the effect on those who are ripe for deception because the don’t love the truth. Eventually God has to let them alone to the path they have chosen, so that they are under a delusion that they are all right when the opposite is all too true in the sight of Heaven.

That my friend, is spiritualism. Aside from all the things mentioned so far, they are the most strident advocates for “women’s rights” as witnessed in the movements currently in vogue in the USA. Think Antifa, the women hating Trump movement about the time of his election win, and the continuing rioting whenever a speaker is scheduled for some public venue whom they disagree with, etc.

Some of the latest stats I see are that employers in the private sector in particular, are hiring women less and less, and what might be seen by one as a friendly conversation among employees, might be subject to expensive law suits; because one no longer knows if a word or look, or a task given, will not be taken as an affront to women’s rights, or a personal derogatory insult to “my femininity,” and expensive litigation will soon follow. We’ve already seen it in the gay/lesbian arena. You know the story: You know I’ve been buying cakes from this shop for years, but the moment he refuses to make a cake to celebrate my particular sexual preferences, SUE. And more than one case is happening.

So to return to my original thought, look for the object lesson, even though not all and every particular in the incidental setting might fit your current understanding.


#139

Jimmy,

Are you advocating that the ordained Adventist women around the world, including those baptizing thousands in China to Christ, are involved in spiritualism?

Are you advocating that all ordained women serving as pastors in the Adventist church be defrocked and fired?

Are you saying that those who respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit into spiritual leadership who happen to be women are “under a delusion”?

Are you advocating that Adventism as an employer, follow the world and employ fewer women?

Are you saying that those who follow their consciences and refuse to discriminate between men and women in ministry are “heading for spiritualism”?

You seem focused on deception and delusion and equate being loving and tolerant with a Christ-less religion.

You apparently believe that women in ministry and those who affirm their calling by the Holy Spirit are

  1. deluded
  2. setting up law suits for sexual discrimination
  3. involved in spiritualism
  4. not learning object lessons
  5. worthy of being removed from the gospel ministry they were called to.

#140

as usual george is obsessed with his theological views and wants to cast doubt on others like ellen g white
why is WF Noal “unfortunate”


#141

social justice ???
VEGANISM may lead all roads to WO
we as a church wont even finalize KELLOGG issues


(William Noel) #142

You are right. I wish I had the space here to share more stories of how I see God working through us to change lives and draw hearts to Him. I am very frustrated with theologians because I know several and I can’t point to a one who is actively ministering God’s love or bringing people into the church. Their philosophies were powerless where simple acts of love were transformative.


(Kim Green) #143

I can understand…you are a “doer”. May God continue to guide and bless your efforts to help others.