Toward an Adventist Theology of Social Justice


Very good message in this video, and what we need as a people from a worldly point of view. I think we probably now have enough fake meats out there. A whole food plant based diet is the next to aim for in the majority of the world’s population. Wouldn’t that be wonderful?

Veganism may lead to WO - that’s a new one on me.


You know you’ve asked a whole lot of questions you don’t want an answer to. If I take out the questions with a “loaded question” there is very little left. The exceptional circumstance in China has already been dealt with.
Perhaps for now, if the shoe fits, wear it.

In case this helps:
“Incidental” synonyms: (
[fiddling] [foolish] [frivolous] [inconsequential] [insignificant] [little] [minor] [minute] [negligible] [nugatory] [slight] [small] [small-fry] [trifling] [trivial] [unimportant]

Surely you can find some in there that fit the description of chasing after the trifling while ignoring the real issue.

If you want to engage in the real issue first, then we can talk about the spiritualism problem, or another side issue that will sort itself out as to whether some should some step down, as their choice is proved from Scripture not to be God’ordained. After that is sorted out, lets talk about the “other” side issues that stem from that all important point, although I have often found, once the main and real issue is sorted out, the blinkers come off.

The side/incidental issues once thought were so important to argue about, are seen in their real light, and the one advocating for these goes silent, (embarrassed silence), or they try and hide that embarrassment with bluster and accusing questions that are designed to make any other position than their own seem hateful, or they suddenly become more willing to embrace a truthful dealing with (the WO issue in this case) and admit they just didn’t see it before, and why.

Right now, your choice, do you want to engage whether WO is of God and biblical, or is it part of a current world view of social justice, and in some cases, a SJW’s platform of dissension and chaos?

If all that can be raised is the side issues that stem from that main issue, then we will get nowhere, because its like the saying that epitomizes this current world where every man does what is right in his own eyes. This is played out in homes all across the world, where fathers have no higher standard that their own, and reject the plain words of Scripture because in some cases, they feel too proud the be subject to an authority like God.

I hope you will understand my meaning when you read this illustration. Because the principle of this real-life situation is almost never openly spoken, but is implied in the reaction of our children, it is hard for many to realise it is happening until too late to reverse its outcome - the child has grown up with rebellious thoughts.

I call it the unspoken conversation. The unspoken conversation is played out day in and day out between fathers and sons in the main. But the principle is applicable more and more between parents and daughters also. We ourselves have not been immune to this scenario.
The conversation probably starts off like this:

Father: Son you can’t do that.
Son: Why not?
Father: Because it’s not right.
Son: Why is it not right?
Father: Because it’s wrong.
Son: Why is it wrong?
Father: Because it’s not right.
Son: Why is it not right?
Father: Because it’s wrong.

And so the conversation goes round in circles until the son realizes an important truth. Here is where the conversation generally becomes unspoken even if the former has been said, but is just as real, and just as deadly serious as if it were spoken. The son finally works what is wrong. In most cases he will say to himself, “O dad, it’s just your opinion.” Even when spoken outwardly, the most common reply is, “I’m your dad, you will do as I say.” If the youth is in a rebellious state of mind, his unspoken answer will just be the same, “It’s still just your opinion.” In other words, “my opinion could be just as good as your opinion, after all you said there are no absolutes, no unchangeable standard of right and wrong, and our conscience is good enough to determine what is right.” Many parents have experienced it without realizing it.

The one and only logical answer to these questions, is found in an unchangeable standard outside of ourselves, and our own feelings of what constitutes right and wrong. This is a standard for the conscience that can stand the test of investigation. It has no equal in society or religion. The Word of God.

If you want to follow that standard, then say so, I certainly do, but if not, your reply will reveal your intent.


Veganism is linked to speciesm and PETER SINGER theology.
Don’t we have creation and bible and all in JESUS.
your suggesting linking BIBLE to WORLDLINGS beliefs ?
you should be clearer .
There is a direct spirit and theology of veganism to WO


There’s another side to the coin of your argument re Singer, some tell me that lions and such animals, kill their prey, and often not very cleanly, therefore killing and eating meat is natural. Yes this is one of the arguments used. Try licking your rear end places like the lion does if that is natural.

Your short hand questions/comments are a bit ambiguous in some cases. For instance, just because Singer was (if he was, I haven’t checked) a vegetarian, he was more than likely that, rather than what we would call a vegan today.

The word vegan only started to have some meaning about 1944), so what if Singer was, many of the Bible positions have been stolen by New Agers. There are actually several descriptions of vegan today. Some are ethical vegans which is more in keeping with Singer to some respects. Then there are vegans from a health perspective, without all the radical save the animals and planet activism.

From vegan to New Agers, does that mean that all biblical positions that are similar or replicated by them, or even the Devil, must be thrown out?

There is the truth, that mankind came from Eden with a vegan style diet that lasted for 1,500 approx years until the flood. Because of the shortage of food in the aftermath of the flood, and for another reason, God permitted certain animal foods to be used with caution. Man’s lifespan declined dramatically at this time. And then we have a God trying to introduce the children of Israel to a vegan style diet in the desert with the manna, but they rebelled. Some secular historians recorded that the apostles were vegetarian. After 1844, God began to introduce the vegetarian diet slowly to Adventists through inspiration, with an emphasis on moving to a complete whole food plant based diet by the time Jesus is to come, for that is what will be in heaven and the new earth when all sin is over.

With careful thought, it is apparent that diet throughout the ages consists in seven parts, including the new earth.

Should I throw all that out the window just because Singer adopted a similar diet, albeit for different reasons, or should I follow the inspired word of God and the SOP? A whole foods plant based diet, often similar to a vegan diet existed millennia before there was ever a Peter Singer.

(JA ORourke) #148

This is an excellent point! The same can be said of social justice, Or women’s rights, or the symbol of the rainbow, etc. Just because people appropriate Biblical and Christian themes and symbols does not make those themes and symbols less Biblical or Christian. Excellent point you have made there.


I’ve often thought about the rainbow in that light, have never mentioned it tho. You are right, the movements that have stolen that symbol have not diminished its meaning, just muddied the waters in the eye of some.

(Patrick Travis) #150

There will be no sex in heaven either. Are we to remove those “carnal instincts” now?
1 Tim. 4:1-5.
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

(Steve Mga) #151

Jesus said “No marriage in heaven”.
BUT Jesus DID NOT say there would be no Co-habitation in heaven.
NO ONE will be forced to live with their now Earthly partners.
Jesus Did Not say that our Original brain programming and nervous
system programming will be changed.

(Patrick Travis) #152

It simply says we will “neither marry or give in marriage.” Mt. 22:30. Don’t need to guess about what is not given but I am sure everyone there will be happy. :slight_smile:


Let us be clear about the reality on the ground of the Seventh-day Adventist Church:

The GC has repeatedly used the power of the State against individuals and churches, contra-Scripture, contra-EGW.

One example:

Adventist Denomination Again Goes to Court to Force Congregation to Stop Using Name

By Andrew Hanson, August 14, 2015:

Walter McGill, pastor of The Creation Seventh Day and Adventist Church, has told Adventist Today that he has received notice of new litigation in the district court in Jackson, Tennessee.

He and his assistant, Lucan Chartier, were previously jailed for their refusal to stop using the name.

In this climate, surely it is moot to speak of creating an “Adventist Theology of Social Justice.”


The question of the happiest is interesting. A couple of years ago I worked in North Dakota for 6 months. After I left I heard of a survey of people in America found that the happiest people in the country were in North Dakota. After spending that winter in ND I am of the opinion that they are just happy they did not freeze in their car or truck on some lonely highway. Could be the same thing in Norway:)


If it is the inevitable conclusion then it means the total restructuring of the USA and the end of the Constitution. No nation stands forever but I think we could easily do a few more hundred years before we self destruct. But then I though Trump would destroy the Republican party and I was wrong there so the future is not really something anyone has predicted very well yet.


This is a sad chapter in our church history, and there are several like this. I hope some don’t make this an excuse to add to the wrong. We hope these actions will never be repeated.

It seems a bit cliche but in this case, it is true, “two wrongs don’t make a right.”

(Patrick Travis) #160

Ron, it was the RINOS that destroyed the Rep. Party for personal gain and globalism along with the global village Dems… I have Seen that for more than 15 ys.


Not all “sex” is carnal. “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” HEB 13:4.

God draws a distinction, so should we. Not sure how this come up, but hope this helps explain my position.

The text you quote refers primarily to the Papacy who have explicit laws forbidding some to marry, the priests, and those not of the Catholic faith, and forbidding foods on certain days, e.g. lent, etc. The foods that God has said are good for us, they have forbidden on those certain days. This does not mean every single item that man uses today as food, and that Peter understood in Acts chapters 10 and 11 to be unclean, is what God determines as good food.

Of interest, what Bible version do you quote here? Even the NIV, which I do not regard highly, has this thought preserved largely intact. V3 “They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.”

(Patrick Travis) #162

That’s the SDA church’s quick answer. I Suggest it is the likes of veganism video and a secular answer “to save and control” the world.
My comment was to SDA’s that insist on vegetarianism…as far as sex and the present order of things. Fine for a personal choice but heretical for all.
As I recall, Sda’s feel in love with Hitler for his health message.


This is one area in which we have limited revealed information beyond what Jesus said. I don’t like to speculate on the possibilities of what this might entail or perhaps not. Otherwise my opinion might be different than yours, and which is truth might only lead to arguments about my opinion being better than yours, and you the same.

I remember one pastor of several decades ago, who said of this text, he had trouble understanding that this means that we won’t have special friends from our sojourn on this earth. I agree, we are sure to have special friends from here. The text does not negate that, but refers to a specific marriage relationship that we now have. Nothing more or less. Exactly what that entails is speculation.

(Patrick Travis) #164

(Patrick Travis) #165

(Kim Green) #166

The US has always been evolving and changing…just like every country or culture throughout time. I have no idea how long anything will remain the same but nothing stays stagnant. I don’t know how old you are but in the 6 decades that I have been alive there have been considerable changes in culture and laws.

It is just my opinion (which is shared by others) that the general political trend in the US is going to be some form of Socialism because it is already going down the pathway (look at California). I don’t think that it will take hundreds of years to get there. However, it isn’t something I worry about either.