Triumph, Injustice, and Lost Face: How to Reconcile after a Heated Debate

(Allen Shepherd) #143

They won the vote, Cassie. Why should WE rupture the church because we don’t like the result of a vote we participate in. It is we who are taking an active role, not them. They are just sitting, having won the contest that was set up for all to participate in. We don’t like it, so are “rebelling” against it.

As Obama said, “Votes have consequences.” Does that only apply when you win?

And by the way, they already have been called bigots and discriminators. Read some posts on this thread.


And are you, Allen, a supporter of the female genital mutilation practiced in some areas of Africa as a cultural thing?


Church unity is not won by vote is it…unity is not the result of winners and losers

(Allen Shepherd) #146

Yeah, a big supporter. Why not? I don’t care about WO, thinking it is a cultural thing, so I must, by default, be a big supporter of female genital mutilation. The two are inextricably linked, right?

(Allen Shepherd) #147

Supporters of WO wanted that vote. They thought they could win. They worked hard to do it, and were disappointed, like Hillary supporters. But a vote is a vote. And there are winners and losers.

Another way to do it would be for the elites calling the shots (like the Pope does). They know so much better than us plebeians, so, should by all rights, call the shots, not so?

You have to come up with another way to solve differences. I have not heard WO supporters come up with any accept to ignore the vote for various reasons. I don’t find that reasonable, nor helpful. But maybe you have insight. Go for it.


You ignore the point though…

Church unity is not won by a vote and this is clearly the case here.

Absolutely we need a different way and clearly the method used was adversarial with the only outcome being winners and losers. If the objective was unity the actions and methods failed to achieve this.

As to the availability of alternative solutions there have been as you know other solution proposals including and not limited to the TOSC report.

Among these were solutions were ones that would avoid imposing a requirement for people to act against conscience. Instead a zero sum proposal was made that had the effect of by either design or natural result of creating the situation we have now. Where now we have uniformity imposed upon everyone with the expectation that everyone just deal with it. This is not unity this does not support mutual respect of variance of value and exercise of conscience.


10/26/18 - #2

The False Shepherds have done this to the flock of God.

EZEKIEL: A Prophecy Against False Shepherds

The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy, and say to them—to the shepherds: ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves!

Should not shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the choice animals, but you do not feed the sheep!

You have not strengthened the weak, healed the sick, bandaged the injured, brought back the strays, or sought the lost, but with force and harshness you have ruled over them.

They were scattered because they had no shepherd, and they became food for every wild beast.

My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. My sheep were scattered over the entire face of the earth with no one looking or searching for them.

“Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: As surely as I live, declares the sovereign Lord, my sheep have become prey and have become food for all the wild beasts.

There was no shepherd, and my shepherds did not search for my flock, but fed themselves and did not feed my sheep,

Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: This is what the sovereign Lord says: Look, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand my sheep from their hand. I will no longer let them be shepherds; the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore.

I will rescue my sheep from their mouth, so that they will no longer be food for them.

For this is what the sovereign Lord says: Look, I myself will search for my sheep and seek them out.

As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will seek out my flock. I will rescue them from all the places where they have been scattered on a cloudy, dark day.

I will bring them out from among the peoples and gather them from foreign countries; I will bring them to their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams and all the inhabited places of the land.

In a good pasture I will feed them; the mountain heights of Israel will be their pasture. There they will lie down in a lush pasture, and they will feed on rich grass on the mountains of Israel.

I myself will feed my sheep and I myself will make them lie down, declares the sovereign Lord. I will seek the lost and bring back the strays; I will bandage the injured and strengthen the sick, but the fat and the strong I will destroy.

I will feed them—with judgment!

(Allen Shepherd) #150

As I said, supporters of WO want to ignore the vote for various reasons. And as I also said, WO supporters wanted that vote.


Got it your point is concern about ignoring the vote, I did not suggest otherwise.

I was specifically addressing you astute observation that we need to be better at solving differences and agree heartily with you.

You mentioned that no one has suggested alternative solutions to the problem and my previous reply was:
a) As to the availability of alternative solutions there have been as you know other solution proposals including and not limited to the TOSC report. Among these solutions were ones that would avoid imposing a requirement for people to act against conscience.

b) To further support your statement of being better I suggested that instead of a zero sum proposal which was made and had the effect of, either by design or natural result of, creating the situation we have now (more disunity). Where now we have uniformity (yep that was the vote) imposed upon everyone with the expectation that everyone just deal with it. This is not unity this does not support mutual respect of variance of value and exercise of conscience.

If our goal is unity doesn’t it make more sense to have solutions which achieve this?

(Frankmer7) #152

But, the goal wasn’t really unity. It was the imposition of a particular fundamentalist theological vision to drive uniform church polity and praxis. If that means the shaking of Adventism, so be it. It would simply be a fulfillment of prophecy.

This is what drove the manipulation of the entire process leading up to the vote. The suppression of testimony and TOSC results, and even spewing nonsense about the electronic voting malfunction was justified, because it was in service to God’s cause. And, because he is God’s servant, TW wasn’t looking to be the uniter… he was looking to win, and saw the global south as a willing partner. After all, truth can find no compromise with falsehood.

Religious fundamentalism is truly frightening.



(Red Livingstone) #153

…could do what? Any more damage than an ordained male minister? I would hope that all of our ordained ministers would be sensitive to their congregation whether they be a guest or it is their home church.

I am not sure about your experience, but in my experience… living around the world, traveling extensively, I have sat through many a sermon that didn’t quite ring the SDA bell. I have endured a few superior administrators that did not follow the SDA policy in some areas. These perpetrators of the “truth” were males. One takes it with a grain of salt. Salt and Light, right?

(George Tichy) #154

Though Allen @ajshep often says he doesn’t care about WO or no-WO, his defense has been consistently in favor of NO-WO. Always defending any person or action that leads to keeping the current discrimination status quo in the Church. He does NOT support the equality between men/women as far as ministry is concerned.

And now he is allied to the Africans and others in the fight of dictating that everyone, everywhere, no matter what culture one belongs to, has to abide by a vote that dictates a rule that still works in culturally retrograde societies, despite the refreshing approach reached in more developed societies.

I don’t think that cultural beliefs from a certain region should be imposed on people in different cultures. I don’t care about some “GC vote” that is pro-discrimination. I just reject it, and it has no value in my culture. Period.

And yes, I believe that the GC lost its credibility in full, and this administration has to be either ousted or voted out. I know it’s not going to happen, so it’s time for the lower institution of the Church to do their job!!!

(George Tichy) #155

The vote was about AUTHORITY being shifted. Why are you repeatedly referring to WO? WO was not on the table - and you know that. Are you trying to intentionally confuse the readers?

WO will certainly be ONE of the targets of the KGC, no doubt about it. It’s more than obvious; TW is obsessed with it as we have seen for years now. But the major problem in this AC was shifting authority, giving the GC basically unlimited authority. Ted Wilson’s thirst for power is so evident! And you think this is a good thing, uh?

(George Tichy) #156

Very well said, this is exactly it.

(Allen Shepherd) #157

This is for all here, not just you George.

I found this on Realclearpolitics today (Sunday) from the Detroit News, an opinion piece by Finley, from Oct 27: Be Honest: We Hate Each Other. I thought it characterized the more liberal set here, especially since you think I have been taking cues from the president:

"Too many Democrats (liberals here) are drenched in self-righteousness (my emphasis), convinced of their superiority over the deplorable masses. They can’t grasp that intelligent people can look at the same set of facts, apply to them their own values and experiences, and come up with different opinions.

The possibility they might be wrong, or there is any validity in contrary views, or those who disagree with them aren’t evil or ignorant or cowed by their husbands, is unfathomable (emphasis mine). They are too smug to harbor self-doubt."

Now Finley does not let the Conservatives off the hook, but I thought this was insightful.

You guys need to step back. One of you likened not doing WO to crucifying Christ! Huh?

(George Tichy) #158

Nothing but demagoguery!
If you think defending discrimination of women is cool and you fell proud of it, just keep preaching/defending it.


Wow, I am neither Demo or Rep to be honest and outside the context of US politics the commentators remarks are irrelevant and even ridiculous. In the mission of spreading the Gospel this level of thinking has no place.


“Be Honest: We Hate Each Other.”

Maybe we should pay attention to the Pittsburgh
Rabbi. “There is no place for hate talk in Pittsburgh” - Leaders need to stop using the language of hate.

Maybe we need to reflect in our own circle?:hushed:

(reliquum) #161

WOW. Just wow.

The NAD, as the parent, perhaps ought allow the offspring to reorganize as they see fit.
The kids have been in the basement, rent free, too far long. Perhaps a very inadequate analogy, but one that bears a valid, but sharp point.

But for the kids to say “go away, parent; you go and reorganize. You are not my parent” is, well, i dunno what it is but it is not just, pure, good. Or wise.

(reliquum) #162

No, they wanted a clear, fair, honest vote.

In its stead they were given a “heads I win, tales you lose” vote.

I for one do not believe the wording was not artful, such that many THOUGHT they were voting for nondiscriminatory ordination policy clarification.
I observed that the process to the vote involved stumping against it from the podium.
I observed a heavy bias against a real conversation either in the church-controlled media tentacles (as well certain vociferous independent ministries) or within local churches themselves to educate the “electors” (who were supposed to vote according to the represented constituencies as to the issue, wording, history, and practices)
I observed a sabotage, from the highest podium itself, of anonymous e-Voting and instead a concerted collusion to have open voting, to force the vote against the position that the highest pulpit wanted (“You know where I stand”)
I observed a “nothing has changed” reality to a sudden rush to judgment, a fake “year of grace” , and then quick successive underhanded moves to position power and wield it AGAINST the wishes of the constituents, calling them rebellious, type II spiritualists, a cry for “painful consequences” that “the church asked for”.

No, Allan, the TW & Anti WO railroad has run itself off the narrowgauge tracks.
And has utterly confused even educated doctors, pastors, laity with the glaring silences between the gauche pronouncements portending to be from on high.

Imagine, Allan himself, certainly one of the “very elect”, fooled, and repeating the falsehoods.