i vaguely remember reading somewhere that he just finished building a house in maryland…why would he do that if he wasn’t planning to retire…
Yes, I find it so the longer that I live…lol
2 Likes
I hope he indeed intends to occupy his new home… That would be a relief.
Is Trump also building a new home somewhere far from the WH?.. 
1 Like
i think trump is the man who really needs to retire…i’m now sort of watching CNN’s chris cuomo, who’s saying that trump inherited over 400 million, instead of the 1 million he’s always claimed…according to the NY times, there’s a whole history of fraud and evading taxes in trump’s background, which people were saying earlier is why he won’t release his tax returns…i can’t understand how anyone can believe in him…
People sometimes don’t realise that there are causalities of their actions, because they sit high and dry in their office.
Once my commander made a observations about a photo in his office, and then I realized just how our actions and decisions affects other. His platoon consisted of 31 members, and he remarked that out of the 31, he was the only one alive. So I hope that our leaders remember that there are lives at stake, and not one’s ego.
3 Likes
you are absolutely right, without recognition of or even the notion of the possibility of not understanding their is no hope of change. Asking this question as you do is a good sign that at least some can comprehend this as an issue to be dealt with.
The root cause of the paradox is one that involves deep seated pride and fear of uncertainty at its core. The strong delusion that we can’t be mistaken about anything and that if their is something that contradicts this you can safely ignore/pretend it does not exist.
When one joins the SDA church or grows up in it you have a sense of pride and certainty because you belong to ‘the’ remnant church and have adopted and practice the faith of Jesus and are obedient to His commands. Everything is known, nothing is uncertain, their is no need to question very deeply about
- Biblical mysteries or contradictions (why would Jesus make wine if it was the invention of the Devil) or
- blatant hypocrisy (church leaders are chosen by God with unquestionable authority) or
- kingly/deceptive governance practices (because doing so is of the Devils bidding to disrupt the spreading of Gods words
How do we awaken from the slumber of self reinforced delusion that all that should be known is known and that Present Truth is not a destination achieved in the past but a journey of discovery?
How do we recognize that we as a movement are the living reality/epitome of Rev 3:17 and the call of the 3 Angels to ‘come out of her my people’? Or as the vision of EGW so poignantly described, that to safely travel to Zion we must shed our earthly possessions along the way?
I always thought that this was deeds/traits of character in life exclusively but I do not think so now. We must be willing to
a) eschew culture bias / traditions of men,
b) understand that Bible writers context of messages did not use the modern thinking/culture norms
c) change your level of thinking to accept that Bible writers included personal opinion, culture bias, and actual moral requirements/principles. That they wrote in a setting almost alien to the world we live in now and you must distinguish between these to properly understand what is being said.
We as a denomination claim to ‘Rich in spiritual and theological enlightenment’ but don’t realize we also have of the baggage of tradition, cultural impediments and pride (i.e. being the remnant with all the light and superior to all of the pitiful masses) which prevent of from moving forward to the Kingdom. That because of this, we are the ones who while thinking we are ‘rich and need nothing’, but are in fact poor, blind and naked. This pride, self satisfaction and unconscious refusal to explore, question, and examine our basic assumptions about our level of thinking and approach makes it impossible to move forward as the road to heaven grows more narrow and demands we change our way of thinking.
Is there hope to overcome this? How do we influence others and plant the seeds to recognize our situation?
I suppose it is simply Communicate, Communicate, Communicate. Communicate with those we encounter in person or in writing. Help people connect the dots between the concepts described here and keep communicating it. The Spirit of the Lord has lead us to understand this and he is well able to do the same with others if we in our own humble way share what we have learned and build bridges of understanding.
So Fowler/George/Kim any thoughts about how to get this as a concept to our brethren based on you life experience?
2 Likes
I watched the same program. By the way, an excellent program.
Trump gave CNN a hard time for so long, so I guess they have been doing some digging and he will pay dearly for his stupid remarks about them.
More to come!
1 Like
That’s one of the points! Let us take this chance and navigate the right and successful way to avoid the planned restrictions of freedom of conscience inside the church. For outside we use IRLA!
The day this happens the Church may lose a great number of members. I believe that such an invasion of privacy will not be tolerated buy a gigantic number of believers. Not by me, this for sure.
David, first off…I enjoy your writing and thought processes. You are logical, spiritually open and a true “Seeker of Truth”.
You have asked the right question for sure about what we can do. In answer to this, I would say- simply live your life as best you can with the Holy Spirit guiding you to the right people, places, or things. If you ask to be guided, you will be. If you are prompted to continue to write and communicate here- do so. Our lives always communicate what our ideals and values are. I believe that it is always the best “witness” to others.
I continue to write here because I feel that it is my obligation to spread whatever influence I have and learn from others. I don’t know if I have much faith in the SDA church opening up their eyes to the real position that they are in. As you mentioned already…spiritual things are spiritually discerned and the current administration appears to me to have no discernment. However, on an individual basis we can make our thoughts and voices heard. It is our right…and privilege.
5 Likes
it’s not just CNN…it’s also the “failing new york times”, which broke this story…trump has kind of painted himself in a corner with the media, that’s for sure…
i actually think trump is talented, and that he has a lot of street smarts…in addition, although he’s overweight, his decision to stay away from alcohol and cigarettes has paid off in terms of good energy for his age…but the big problem is the constant, constant lying…according to wapo, on Sept 7, at an air force one gathering, trump told 125 lies in under 120 minutes…he’s now at a total of over 5,000 lies since taking office, for an average of 8.3 lies a day…to me, he’s a see-through phony all the way…i can’t believe he is where he is…
i have to say that compared to trump, i really can’t see that TW has problems…in light of the NCC story here on Spectrum, i’m thinking now that in all the initiatives we’ve seen since san antonio, he’s just responding to conservative constituents who’ve been ignored by their conferences and unions…conservatives are huge tithe payers…they deserve to be taken seriously by somebody, and apparently TW is their last shot…
David 1 –
Learning here through CONVERSATION is the process of this magazine online.
It is as Proverbs says, “Iron sharpening Iron”. The 2 both become changed, and
the 2 both become useful tools.
That is the power of conversation here on Spectrum.
2 Likes
How true are Ellen White’s inspired words. She wrote: “Authority must be maintained by a firm severity, or it will be received by many with mockery and contempt.” PK p. 236. We see the fulfillment of these words here at this Spectrum Website with our own
eyes, but God is still the same. Just as such unholy mockery was punished in Elisha’s days, it will also be punished in our days. God may be patient for some time but His judgment will certainly follow. Ellen White continues: “Reverence should be shown for God’s representatives - for ministers, teachers, and parents… Those who profess to be followers of Christ, and are at the same time rough, unkind, and uncourteous, have not learned of Jesus.” PK p. 237.
I challenge this statement you make in reference to Spectrum website commentators. You have confused mockery with admonishment.
These passages you quote were not meant to be a shield against stewards in leadership and their supporters who misuse their position and attempt to exert kingly power.
You have dishonestly use this passage to suit your own misguided attempt to thwart those who have honestly and directly called for change. To compare the jeering mockery of the youth at Bethel’s gates who wanted nothing more than to humiliate and demean the anointed Prophet of the Lord is a blatant false equivalency and a false witness. It is neither crime punishable by death nor dishonest to call out and demand change of a leadership who has lost it way. Indeed not, it is instead everyone’s duty to create awareness and demand change lest you be guilty of the same lust for power and misrepresentation of the character of God in church management and endorsement of a fear based coercive church governance that EGW herself worked tirelessly against. Nothing less is spiritual cowardice.
EGW herself did not condone the same spirit and actions of those in her time, as in ours, who attempted to do the same. She strongly opposed the move toward a hierarchical form of church governance and a centralization of power within the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
In Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (p. 291, 292), Ellen White writes:
Everything that has been planned in regard to consolidation shows that men are seeking to grasp the scepter of power and hold control over human minds. But God does not work with them in their devising, and the voice they now have in the cause of God is not the voice of God. They have proved themselves utterly unworthy of a place as wise managers; for their strength is used to turn men away from their rights, to benefit themselves. There have been acts of apparent liberality, but God knows the motive which governed them, and He will not accept their offerings until they repent and become conscientious doers of His word.
There is great necessity for unity in the work and cause of God; but for a long time influences have been at work seeking to create disaffection, and the men who feel that they have the power in their hands care little. They say within themselves: When this consolidation is perfected, we will show them who is master. We will then bring things into line. But they will never have that work to do.
Indeed if we were to follow your counsel, the Advent movement founded 150 years ago, the Adventist Church was founded as a Protestant movement would trade honest representative form of governance for conformance/compliance committees based leadership with a spirit of fear and coercion. In contrast to your think do you know that in the Advent movements ideals, current policies (Section B 95 of GC Working Policy 1) already lay out a process by which the church is to deal with an entity that decides to go its own way. These existing policies rightly make the erring entity accountable to its own representative governing body, not to the GC. The GC’s and each division’s role, then, is to provide counsel and resources to unions and conferences to help them navigate such matters.
I submit that the level of thinking you represent is a contributing root cause to many ills in the church that have caused generations to go astray. Before responding with an angry/trite response please think deeply and without pride and hubris.
5 Likes
The cartoon speaks louder than words. My experience and conviction varies enormously with yours and with those on your side. God will judge rightly.
That which has been legally and officially agreed together by the delegates of the world church, even up to three times, should be respected and not be neglected. This is a fundamental principle of democratic order. It is the right, duty and privilege of the Geneal Conference to maintain democratic policy and to take action against those in the church who oppose fundamental democratic principles of order and prefer to follow their own personal convictions. God is a God of order and not of chaos.
You speak of “stewards in leadership and their supporters who misuse their position and attempt to exert kingly power.” You refer to “those who have honestly and directly called for change… to call out and demand change of a leadership who has lost it way…” You speak of “lust for power and misrepresentation of the character of God in church management and endorsement of a fear based coercive church governance…” All these expressions reveal your own way of thinking and of a rather small segment in the church but, certainly, do not represent the conviction of the world church at large. If the proposed change of leadership is not carried by the majority of the world church, it is a democratic duty to abide with that. Democratic rule and order are heavenly principles which must be respected.
I am convinced, God is leading His Church and He is not dependent on our input nor is He in need of our short-sighted fallible help. If there are things that need to be corrected, He will put things in order. We read: "God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port… When you think that the work is in danger, pray, ‘Lord, stand at the wheel. Carry us through the perplexity. Bring us safely into port.’ Have we not reason to believe that the Lord will bring us through triumphantly?” {2SM 390, 391.}
I prefer to believe these encouraging and comforting words and instead of accusing the brethren, we are counseled to show faith and pray.
A picture speaks a thousands words, and yes illustrates the point clearly.
All that is necessary to evil to prosper is that good men do nothing. Prayer is always the first response but not the only one. Your assertion that we should do nothing and allow it to sort itself out without raising a warning or any action to remedy is the opposite of advice from EGW herself on exactly this subject. How is it that you continue to ignore this and stubbornly advocate doing nothing and allowing those in leadership to persist in wrong doing?
In 1896 Ellen White saw the “Paths of Rome” running through Battle Creek. As has often been noted, in the late 1890s Ellen White lost a great deal of sleep over her fears that the leading brethren of her church were exerting far too tight a control over the affairs of the movement. In 1896 she protested vigorously the plans of the leaders in Battle Creek to “invent regulations through which they compel men to be ruled by their own ideas and not by the Holy Spirit.” Plans “to obtain control of human minds and ability” she considered as “strange fire.” Righteously indignant, she protested that leaders, through various means, were attempting “to control the consciences of their fellow men.”1 It was at this time that she uttered one of her sharpest rebukes ever given to General Conference leaders. From her perspective, they were beginning to act like the papacy. To those who served on the Book Committee in particular she asserted that they were “following in the tread of the paths of Rome.”2
Simple question, was she right in her counsel which rightly applies to exactly what we see happening today or do you reject?: Mark Yes or No
Y __
N __
3 Likes
You are convinced that things are going wrong in the church - that the “Paths of Rome” are running again through the church. If that would really be the case we should courteously and respectfully speak up in a Christian way. But it is not at all my experience nor opinion that things are that bad in the church, and that is neither the opinion of the world church at large. We differ widely, and you and those on your side are just as stubborn in your conviction as you accuse me to be, absolutely. I do not see any fruitful advantage in our conversation. We stand on a completely different platform. We should leave it to God and trust in Him. It is God’s church and not ours.
So by avoiding the question you have answered it and expose the true nature of your opinion of the counsel given by the messenger of the Lord and by proxy those on ‘your side’.
Counsel and dialog are not ‘accusation’. When counsel is plainly and unambiguously given regarding a situation and it is rejected, it is oneself that self indicts. The one who engages in raising the a warning or points it out is neither stubborn or adversarial.
1 Like
- I wish people would not call it “mockery” when someone disagrees with something that is going on in the Church. Or when someone asks questions that are actually embarrassing and usually remain unanswered.
- Using EGW to criticize others is not recommended in her own writings.
- Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Diminishing, criticizing, and judging others just because they may have a different opinion on a subject is less than kind and respectful.
2 Likes
So when we see something wrong we should just condone it by staying quiet? Is this what you are saying? Why would any intelligent person make such a poor choice?
Yes, it is God’s Church indeed, but it is managed by human beings. And what the human beings in power & authority are doing right now is deplorable.
Don’t you see that the GC President doesn’t even repudiate an horrible heresy (Perfectionism, now disguised as LGT), one that some people in the past tried to infiltrate in the Church and all GC Presidents at that time repudiated it. But Ted Wilson actually support those satellite ministries that are preaching this heresy. And we should be quiet because you are throwing some texts from EGW on us?
Besides, all the manipulation and political maneuvers happening at the GC for the past few years are disgusting. I have a question for you:
EGW supported the creation on Unions, with the authority and power they still have today. Part of their job was intended to be barring the GC from abusing its own authority by interfering in the Conferences’ and local churches’ businesses. Ted Wilson has been trying to break this order, seeking to extend (basically stealing) the authority of the Unions, making the GC a super-power over the whole Church. Do you support what Ted Wilson has been doing?
____ YES … ____ NO
Simple question, no explanation needed. But please, don’t dodge the question.
2 Likes