We Can Be Progressive Adventists without Exploiting Anti-Catholic Feelings


Did I say anything about 1844? Daniel 8 has a lot to say about the Roman power in both its Imperial and ecclesiastical phase, the later extending to our time. I sought to highlight the opposition of Rome (both phases) to all that God does for our salvation in His heavenly temple. This is brought to view for us in Daniel 8: 10-12.
My assertions need to be tested by a thorough investigation of Scriptures. But then, so do yours.

Adventism is an oil burning, gas hog vehicle, which is stuck in 1st gear…going the wrong way down a ONE-WAY road full of potholes.

Hope, that the "output" meets the requirements of US standards during regulatory testing


If all we knew about Christianity was from the Catholic Church, we would have a very poor picture of Christianity. The extreme end of something/someone always gets more publicity and exposure. Having lived in Muslim countries for several years and interacting with them daily, I have a very different picture of Islam. Individuals who were always willing to discuss the Bible. In some cases more open and honest about their religion than I was at the time.

Yes, there are extreme believers in both Christianity and Islam, and you can add Buddhism and Hinduism to that also. They get most of the exposure but if you dig beneath that you will find genuine people searching for truth.

Was Mohammed inspired by Allah? Perhaps, initially. There is a distinct change in his writings and behaviour in his later years compared to his early years.

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I could banter with you on this but it would be. hijacking David’s article. A brief one time comment- I am of the opinion the little horn does apply to Antiochus. The Jewish economy/God’s people could have been destroyed by Him. He removed the daily sacrifices and did sacrilege to the Temple. Had Judas Mc. not delivered them there would have been no Temple for Christ to come to.
Josephus recognizes this supreme threat to God’s O.T. people (Book 12, ch.7, para.6). SDA’s hardly mention it.
I suggest Antiochus was also a “type” of those who later would attack God’s people/ “The Israel of God, the church” in the future and attempt to destroy them and true worship until the “last”/consummation of the last days which was inaugurated at the cross. After atonement the resurrected Christ, the Son of Man was transported in victory to the throne of God/Ancient of days and given a kingdom where He sits at God’s rt. hand as a King-Priest on behalf of His people until the consummation of all things related to His Kingdom…



If you lived here…you might actually question that it was! :smile:

"If all we knew about Christianity was from the Catholic Church, we would have a very poor picture of Christianity."

And I suppose that we might be able to add Adventism to this as well…


Does or can that include our religious bureaucrats doing the same within the Adventist system, Peter?



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Whoa…take it easy Robin! While there are problems with pedophile priests, I wouldn’t lump Catholics as a whole into this equation. My family is Catholic, and they are revolted by what has happened, and the abuses embedded in the history of the RCC. I also wouldn’t lump Muslims into this for the sins of Mohammed. The only commonality I could see would be people in both entities being under religious systems that have originated with or perpetrated abuse.




This just makes so much more sense in its context, Pat, without lessening the impact on us and what drives persecution in all ages. As Adventists, we are largely not conversant with the history of interpretation of these passages. Josephus’ views concerning Antiochus reflected the Jewish views of his time. It is also why Jesus himself celebrated Hanukkah.





It is amazing to me that in all probability you interpret Dan 2 according to historicist principles and yet in Daniel 8 you seem to prefer a preterist interpretation.

The 4 great parallel prophetic outlines of Daniel - chapter 2, chapter 7, chapters 8 & 9 and finally chapters 10 -12 are all intended to span the ages from Daniel’s time to the time of the end.

But if you interpret the exceedingly great horn of Daniel 8 as Antiochus this is not so, though Daniel 8 specifically says that it reaches to the time of the end.

A consistent historicist interpretation of the book of Daniel is much to be preferred than any talk of little pip-squeak Antiochus being an exceedingly great power.

Hi Peter,
Dan.7 has to do with aspects of the 4 kingdoms and “the Son of man” receiving a kingdom prior to the consummation of all things. Dan 8 , a vision 2 yrs later, clearly self identifies this prophecy of a little horn as during the 3rd. Kingdom as regards the horn representative of Antiochus and the coming dangers to Israel… All chapters need not deal with all the 4 MAJOR kingdoms or be in chronological order…neither does “time of the end” always mean the absolute end of time but the “end of the period of fulfillment” of the particular prophecy.
This is not of private interpretation or my remarks above regarding to the Son, now having received a kingdom. Keil & Delitzsch, Matthew Henry & Others note the differences in Chapters 7 & 8.
Jesus went into a far away land at His ascension where He received a Kingdom and sits at His Father’s rt. Hand on the Throne as King-Priest and Judge until He returns to get His glorious Bride and Bring final Judgement on the kingdoms of this world that cause His bride harm.
His Kingdom “has come” and “it is coming.” The “last days” both have come and “are coming.”
PS. As to the 2300 which I am sure you insist must be years…Henry offers literal days in context with the times and needs of the prophecy to Israel, " But it is less forced to understand them of so many natural days; 2300 days make six years and three months, and about eighteen days; and just so long they reckon from the defection of the people, procured by Menelaus the high priest in the 142nd year of the kingdom of the Seleucidae, the sixth month of that year, and the 6th day of the month (so Josephus dates it), to the cleansing of the sanctuary, and the reestablishment of religion among them, which was in the 148th year, the 9th month, and the 25th day of the month, [1 Mac. 4:52]


We lived during my grade school years just across the track of the Catholic Church. they used to get their holy water from our pump. Their Mary is just one step ahead of Adventist Ellen White. I am glad Jesus said Come unto Me. He was very aware and concerned for His mother even in deep dying pain. Let us treat her as her Son did, but come directly to Jesus through His Spirit. We differ one one main point we believe that the immaculate conception applied to Christ not Mary.


The day-year principle is a clearly established biblical rule of interpretation of Bible prophecy (Ezekiel 4:4-6,9) and the theory that the 2300 days of Daniel 8 must be understood as literal days can only be true if Daniel, as a writer, was as much careless as many Bible prophecy readers are dishonest. Are the seventy weeks or 490 days of Daniel 9 literal?

As Peter explained in his comment, the prophecies of Daniel 2, 7 and 8 relate the same prophetic events : Daniel 2 reveals a succession of kingdoms that would rule after the kingdom of Babylon until the end of times, Daniel 7 expands on Daniel 2 and reveals specific features characterising those kingdoms, and Daniel 8 expands on Daniel 7 describing the way in which the different kingdoms successively gained hegemony.


  • “the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great” illustrates the three major conquests of the Medes and Persians to establish the Achaemenid empire (Lydia to the West, Babylon, Egypt and Nubia to the South and the Scythians to the North) extending from India to Ethiopia, the extremities of the then known world, over a hundred and twenty-seven provinces.

  • the goat that came “close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand” represents Greece laying West of Persia and led by Alexander the Great who with much swiftness totally overthrew an plundered the Persian empire.

“the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven” : this represents the breaking up of the Greek empire after Alexander’s death into four parts controlled by Alexander’s four generals.

  • the little horn who began rising out of one the four horns and “which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land”
    represents Rome who first gained a foothold into the greek empire through political intrigue as the greek city-states disatisfied with Macedonian rule sought protection from the Roman Senate. Then by 148 BC Rome had conquered Macedonia, one of the four horns ruled by Cassander after Alexander’s death. Egypt in the south became a province of the Roman empire in 30 BC. Rome conquered Syria in the East in 65 BC. The “pleasant land” or Judea became a Roman province by 63 BC and they eventually destroyed the Jewish city and temple and scattered the Jewish people.

Interesting facts about Antiochus IV Epiphanes which many believe is the little horn of Daniel 8 :

** Antiochus IV Epiphanes (The Illustrious) was nicknamed Antiochus IV Epimanes (The Mad One) by his contemporaries due to his manners and capricious character.
** At the peace treaty of Apamea in 188 BC, Antiochus III (Antiochus IV Epimanes’ father) was forced to cede much of his conquered territories to Rome, pay war indemnity, hand over all of his war elephants, commit himself to fight against a city in Asia Minor ONLY in the case of being attacked, hand over 20 hostages including his son Antiochus IV Epiphanes who was later exchanged for his nephew Demetrius I Soter, etc… (http://asiaminor.ehw.gr/Forms/fLemmaBody.aspx?lemmaId=7886)
** When Antiochus IV Epiphanes attacked Egypt in 168 BC, the Roman Senate sent an elderly Roman ambassador, Gaius Popillius Laenas, to inform him he should stop or face consequences and he obeyed and withdrew (http://www.yorku.ca/rloeppky/images/story_of_gaius_popillius_lae.htm).

By the way, in Daniel 8 verse 11 and 13, the word “sacrifice” is not in the original manuscripts and the “daily” and “transgression of desolation” is understood by many of our pioneers as refering to paganism practised by Pagan Rome being cast down or taken away by Papal Rome.

It should be clear by now that Antiochus IV Epimanes was just a madman puppet king of the Seleucid empire (which represents only one of the four horns of the goat), that he was subjugated by the Romans, and that if the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 and the fourth beast of Daniel 7 both symbolize the Roman empire succeeding the Greek empire, it does not make any sense to believe the little horn which “waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land”, and which, in other words, dominated the four horns which are the four parts of the greek empire in addition to Judea, represents Antiochus IV Epiphanes which, again, was held hostage by Rome to force his father to yield to Rome’s demands and who later submitted to Roman authority --> we can know with certainty that the little horn of Daniel 8 is Rome.

Likewise :
– we can know with certainty that the beast of Revelation 13 is Rome.
– we can know with certainty that the woman of Revelation 17, “MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” is Rome.
– we can know with certainty - in fact even the world (Boston Globe, CNN, etc…) is seeing and proclaiming - that “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird”.
– we can know with certainty that Babylon’s “sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.”
– we can know with certainty that the plagues of Revelation 15-16 will fall.
– we can know with certainty that even within Babylon, God has many that he loves, that were deceived and that He wants to save from the corrupting wine of Babylon and he is telling them “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
– we can know for certainty that for the reason previously mentioned, it is our duty to proclaim the three angels’ messages.

Hello Robin,

You aked “Will this be the DEADLY WOUND that will destroy the papacy” referring to widespread (300 priest abusing 1000 children in Pennsylvania alone --> then add Boston, Ireland etc and scale it up to continents like Europe Asia Africa and South America) paedophilia cases in the RCC, but based on Bible prophecy of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 the “deadly wound” has already been inflicted to the beast and has already healed.

What the paedophilia scandal does reveals to me is that it confirms that “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”

Concerning Islam, Revelation 9 refers to it as a “woe” coming from “the bottomless pit” : it is a deception of the devil.

No reason to rehash what Adventism repeatedly denies due to “their infallible prophet” and Uriah Smith. Just consider that all the major exegetes of Protestant history are somehow obviously dishonest and uninformed. Consider that the SDA church is the only church with their unique understanding of Dan. 8:14.
Consider the meaning for the Jewish people and then simply discount it all because “we have a sure word of prophecy” and by golly we are sticking to it.
You, Peter, Andrews Univ. et.al. believe as as you will.

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The evidence I have is based on observations of a 5th generation SDA. It is based on the fact that I have met Leroy Froom as a child as a family friend. It is based on the fact he knew he could never truly prove our position in an scholarly position. It is based on his letter to Roger Nicole, a now deceased Professor of mine and undeniable scholar at RTS as well as one of the founders of the Evangelical Theological Society and asking his opinion of “Prophetic Faith of our Fathers” and other topics in the letter that I ran across in the library from Froom. Being the gentleman he was, when I asked him if the SDA interpretation of 8:!4 was correct he simply in his kind Swiss voice nodded said, “no.”
It is based on Bruce Waltke, professor of mine & truly a Hebrew scholar contributor to NIV OT. and exegete, who used to go to Andrews to evaluate their Phd. candidates and program. He simply would say when I asked him, as the gentleman he is, concerning 8:14, “they mean well.”
I have had Greek and Hebrew but I would not dare call myself a qualified “scholarly exegete” of scripture. To put arguments forth in this setting is futile. Where are the churches scholarly articles in theological journals other than their own?
SDA’s have a default that if others don’t see what they do then they are probably dishonest or uninformed.and they definitely don’t have an “infallible prophet.” This simply isn’t the case. If it weren’t for those “dishonest & uninformed” Andrews couldn’t have an accredited theological school. Present one of these gentlemen scholars that accept our understanding of the 2300 days and 1844.
I don’t know your credentials but exegesis is more than looking up a Greek or Hebrew word in a lexicon. So, if your credentials are of scholarly value perhaps you should present your unique argument to a scholarly theological journal outside the SDA church.
So, these are part of the reason why this M.Div. from RTS., finally came to the point I no longer choose to be an SDA. I still have fond memories of being in the church, chilhood and wonderful friends but the entire narrative and how it ultimately affects people is something I no longer choose to be associated with. I am also thankful I am not bitter, just sorrowful and choose to move on.
Blessings as far as your desire to follow what you choose to be true.

David Larson, I am sorry if I was a co-partner responding to Peter Marks in somehow getting away from your article…but somehow maybe it adds to it’s meaning.


Don’t get in the Plymouth Fury, either in Genesis or Jeremiah.
I prefer to ride in the disciples Honda.

It’s fast, it’s bigger than your clown car, and it’s turbocharged.
They ALL arrived with a BIG wind in ONE Accord.
Astute readers might stumble upon this if they have read several versions of their bibles.


I assume you are refusing all such labels: progressive, conservative, historical, liberal, etc., and thank you for standing in opposition to the free application of such labels. There may be some views that appear to qualify for the label, but the label always carries with it much baggage. Each individual believer may not want to claim or carry every single piece of that baggage. It’s difficult to think that families can enjoy much unity if members of the family insist on categorizing and labeling other members. It’s the same within a church family. It is good practice to label a viewpoint rather than a person. Viewpoints can change and they frequently do, but labeled people tend to carry those labels long after they have changed their views.