Pat,
Did I say anything about 1844? Daniel 8 has a lot to say about the Roman power in both its Imperial and ecclesiastical phase, the later extending to our time. I sought to highlight the opposition of Rome (both phases) to all that God does for our salvation in His heavenly temple. This is brought to view for us in Daniel 8: 10-12.
My assertions need to be tested by a thorough investigation of Scriptures. But then, so do yours.
Adventism is an oil burning, gas hog vehicle, which is stuck in 1st gearâŚgoing the wrong way down a ONE-WAY road full of potholes.
Hope, that the "output" meets the requirements of US standards during regulatory testing
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If all we knew about Christianity was from the Catholic Church, we would have a very poor picture of Christianity. The extreme end of something/someone always gets more publicity and exposure. Having lived in Muslim countries for several years and interacting with them daily, I have a very different picture of Islam. Individuals who were always willing to discuss the Bible. In some cases more open and honest about their religion than I was at the time.
Yes, there are extreme believers in both Christianity and Islam, and you can add Buddhism and Hinduism to that also. They get most of the exposure but if you dig beneath that you will find genuine people searching for truth.
Was Mohammed inspired by Allah? Perhaps, initially. There is a distinct change in his writings and behaviour in his later years compared to his early years.
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Peter,
I could banter with you on this but it would be. hijacking Davidâs article. A brief one time comment- I am of the opinion the little horn does apply to Antiochus. The Jewish economy/Godâs people could have been destroyed by Him. He removed the daily sacrifices and did sacrilege to the Temple. Had Judas Mc. not delivered them there would have been no Temple for Christ to come to.
Josephus recognizes this supreme threat to Godâs O.T. people (Book 12, ch.7, para.6). SDAâs hardly mention it.
I suggest Antiochus was also a âtypeâ of those who later would attack Godâs people/ âThe Israel of God, the churchâ in the future and attempt to destroy them and true worship until the âlastâ/consummation of the last days which was inaugurated at the cross. After atonement the resurrected Christ, the Son of Man was transported in victory to the throne of God/Ancient of days and given a kingdom where He sits at Godâs rt. hand as a King-Priest on behalf of His people until the consummation of all things related to His KingdomâŚ
Regards
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If you lived hereâŚyou might actually question that it was! 
"If all we knew about Christianity was from the Catholic Church, we would have a very poor picture of Christianity."
And I suppose that we might be able to add Adventism to this as wellâŚ
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Does or can that include our religious bureaucrats doing the same within the Adventist system, Peter?
ThanksâŚ
Frank
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WhoaâŚtake it easy Robin! While there are problems with pedophile priests, I wouldnât lump Catholics as a whole into this equation. My family is Catholic, and they are revolted by what has happened, and the abuses embedded in the history of the RCC. I also wouldnât lump Muslims into this for the sins of Mohammed. The only commonality I could see would be people in both entities being under religious systems that have originated with or perpetrated abuse.
ThanksâŚ
Frank
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This just makes so much more sense in its context, Pat, without lessening the impact on us and what drives persecution in all ages. As Adventists, we are largely not conversant with the history of interpretation of these passages. Josephusâ views concerning Antiochus reflected the Jewish views of his time. It is also why Jesus himself celebrated Hanukkah.
ThanksâŚ
Frank
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Pat,
It is amazing to me that in all probability you interpret Dan 2 according to historicist principles and yet in Daniel 8 you seem to prefer a preterist interpretation.
The 4 great parallel prophetic outlines of Daniel - chapter 2, chapter 7, chapters 8 & 9 and finally chapters 10 -12 are all intended to span the ages from Danielâs time to the time of the end.
But if you interpret the exceedingly great horn of Daniel 8 as Antiochus this is not so, though Daniel 8 specifically says that it reaches to the time of the end.
A consistent historicist interpretation of the book of Daniel is much to be preferred than any talk of little pip-squeak Antiochus being an exceedingly great power.
Hi Peter,
Dan.7 has to do with aspects of the 4 kingdoms and âthe Son of manâ receiving a kingdom prior to the consummation of all things. Dan 8 , a vision 2 yrs later, clearly self identifies this prophecy of a little horn as during the 3rd. Kingdom as regards the horn representative of Antiochus and the coming dangers to Israel⌠All chapters need not deal with all the 4 MAJOR kingdoms or be in chronological orderâŚneither does âtime of the endâ always mean the absolute end of time but the âend of the period of fulfillmentâ of the particular prophecy.
This is not of private interpretation or my remarks above regarding to the Son, now having received a kingdom. Keil & Delitzsch, Matthew Henry & Others note the differences in Chapters 7 & 8.
Jesus went into a far away land at His ascension where He received a Kingdom and sits at His Fatherâs rt. Hand on the Throne as King-Priest and Judge until He returns to get His glorious Bride and Bring final Judgement on the kingdoms of this world that cause His bride harm.
His Kingdom âhas comeâ and âit is coming.â The âlast daysâ both have come and âare coming.â
Cheers
PS. As to the 2300 which I am sure you insist must be yearsâŚHenry offers literal days in context with the times and needs of the prophecy to Israel, " But it is less forced to understand them of so many natural days; 2300 days make six years and three months, and about eighteen days; and just so long they reckon from the defection of the people, procured by Menelaus the high priest in the 142nd year of the kingdom of the Seleucidae, the sixth month of that year, and the 6th day of the month (so Josephus dates it), to the cleansing of the sanctuary, and the reestablishment of religion among them, which was in the 148th year, the 9th month, and the 25th day of the month, [1 Mac. 4:52]
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We lived during my grade school years just across the track of the Catholic Church. they used to get their holy water from our pump. Their Mary is just one step ahead of Adventist Ellen White. I am glad Jesus said Come unto Me. He was very aware and concerned for His mother even in deep dying pain. Let us treat her as her Son did, but come directly to Jesus through His Spirit. We differ one one main point we believe that the immaculate conception applied to Christ not Mary.
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The day-year principle is a clearly established biblical rule of interpretation of Bible prophecy (Ezekiel 4:4-6,9) and the theory that the 2300 days of Daniel 8 must be understood as literal days can only be true if Daniel, as a writer, was as much careless as many Bible prophecy readers are dishonest. Are the seventy weeks or 490 days of Daniel 9 literal?
As Peter explained in his comment, the prophecies of Daniel 2, 7 and 8 relate the same prophetic events : Daniel 2 reveals a succession of kingdoms that would rule after the kingdom of Babylon until the end of times, Daniel 7 expands on Daniel 2 and reveals specific features characterising those kingdoms, and Daniel 8 expands on Daniel 7 describing the way in which the different kingdoms successively gained hegemony.
Thus,
-
âthe ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became greatâ illustrates the three major conquests of the Medes and Persians to establish the Achaemenid empire (Lydia to the West, Babylon, Egypt and Nubia to the South and the Scythians to the North) extending from India to Ethiopia, the extremities of the then known world, over a hundred and twenty-seven provinces.
-
the goat that came âclose unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his handâ represents Greece laying West of Persia and led by Alexander the Great who with much swiftness totally overthrew an plundered the Persian empire.
âthe he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heavenâ : this represents the breaking up of the Greek empire after Alexanderâs death into four parts controlled by Alexanderâs four generals.
- the little horn who began rising out of one the four horns and âwhich waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant landâ
represents Rome who first gained a foothold into the greek empire through political intrigue as the greek city-states disatisfied with Macedonian rule sought protection from the Roman Senate. Then by 148 BC Rome had conquered Macedonia, one of the four horns ruled by Cassander after Alexanderâs death. Egypt in the south became a province of the Roman empire in 30 BC. Rome conquered Syria in the East in 65 BC. The âpleasant landâ or Judea became a Roman province by 63 BC and they eventually destroyed the Jewish city and temple and scattered the Jewish people.
Interesting facts about Antiochus IV Epiphanes which many believe is the little horn of Daniel 8 :
** Antiochus IV Epiphanes (The Illustrious) was nicknamed Antiochus IV Epimanes (The Mad One) by his contemporaries due to his manners and capricious character.
** At the peace treaty of Apamea in 188 BC, Antiochus III (Antiochus IV Epimanesâ father) was forced to cede much of his conquered territories to Rome, pay war indemnity, hand over all of his war elephants, commit himself to fight against a city in Asia Minor ONLY in the case of being attacked, hand over 20 hostages including his son Antiochus IV Epiphanes who was later exchanged for his nephew Demetrius I Soter, etc⌠(http://asiaminor.ehw.gr/Forms/fLemmaBody.aspx?lemmaId=7886)
** When Antiochus IV Epiphanes attacked Egypt in 168 BC, the Roman Senate sent an elderly Roman ambassador, Gaius Popillius Laenas, to inform him he should stop or face consequences and he obeyed and withdrew (http://www.yorku.ca/rloeppky/images/story_of_gaius_popillius_lae.htm).
By the way, in Daniel 8 verse 11 and 13, the word âsacrificeâ is not in the original manuscripts and the âdailyâ and âtransgression of desolationâ is understood by many of our pioneers as refering to paganism practised by Pagan Rome being cast down or taken away by Papal Rome.
It should be clear by now that Antiochus IV Epimanes was just a madman puppet king of the Seleucid empire (which represents only one of the four horns of the goat), that he was subjugated by the Romans, and that if the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 and the fourth beast of Daniel 7 both symbolize the Roman empire succeeding the Greek empire, it does not make any sense to believe the little horn which âwaxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant landâ, and which, in other words, dominated the four horns which are the four parts of the greek empire in addition to Judea, represents Antiochus IV Epiphanes which, again, was held hostage by Rome to force his father to yield to Romeâs demands and who later submitted to Roman authority --> we can know with certainty that the little horn of Daniel 8 is Rome.
Likewise :
â we can know with certainty that the beast of Revelation 13 is Rome.
â we can know with certainty that the woman of Revelation 17, âMYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTHâ is Rome.
â we can know with certainty - in fact even the world (Boston Globe, CNN, etcâŚ) is seeing and proclaiming - that âBabylon the great is fallen, is fallen and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful birdâ.
â we can know with certainty that Babylonâs âsins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.â
â we can know with certainty that the plagues of Revelation 15-16 will fall.
â we can know with certainty that even within Babylon, God has many that he loves, that were deceived and that He wants to save from the corrupting wine of Babylon and he is telling them âCome out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.â
â we can know for certainty that for the reason previously mentioned, it is our duty to proclaim the three angelsâ messages.
Hello Robin,
You aked âWill this be the DEADLY WOUND that will destroy the papacyâ referring to widespread (300 priest abusing 1000 children in Pennsylvania alone --> then add Boston, Ireland etc and scale it up to continents like Europe Asia Africa and South America) paedophilia cases in the RCC, but based on Bible prophecy of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 the âdeadly woundâ has already been inflicted to the beast and has already healed.
What the paedophilia scandal does reveals to me is that it confirms that âBabylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.â
Concerning Islam, Revelation 9 refers to it as a âwoeâ coming from âthe bottomless pitâ : it is a deception of the devil.
No reason to rehash what Adventism repeatedly denies due to âtheir infallible prophetâ and Uriah Smith. Just consider that all the major exegetes of Protestant history are somehow obviously dishonest and uninformed. Consider that the SDA church is the only church with their unique understanding of Dan. 8:14.
Consider the meaning for the Jewish people and then simply discount it all because âwe have a sure word of prophecyâ and by golly we are sticking to it.
You, Peter, Andrews Univ. et.al. believe as as you will.
Cheers,
Pat
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The evidence I have is based on observations of a 5th generation SDA. It is based on the fact that I have met Leroy Froom as a child as a family friend. It is based on the fact he knew he could never truly prove our position in an scholarly position. It is based on his letter to Roger Nicole, a now deceased Professor of mine and undeniable scholar at RTS as well as one of the founders of the Evangelical Theological Society and asking his opinion of âProphetic Faith of our Fathersâ and other topics in the letter that I ran across in the library from Froom. Being the gentleman he was, when I asked him if the SDA interpretation of 8:!4 was correct he simply in his kind Swiss voice nodded said, âno.â
It is based on Bruce Waltke, professor of mine & truly a Hebrew scholar contributor to NIV OT. and exegete, who used to go to Andrews to evaluate their Phd. candidates and program. He simply would say when I asked him, as the gentleman he is, concerning 8:14, âthey mean well.â
I have had Greek and Hebrew but I would not dare call myself a qualified âscholarly exegeteâ of scripture. To put arguments forth in this setting is futile. Where are the churches scholarly articles in theological journals other than their own?
SDAâs have a default that if others donât see what they do then they are probably dishonest or uninformed.and they definitely donât have an âinfallible prophet.â This simply isnât the case. If it werenât for those âdishonest & uninformedâ Andrews couldnât have an accredited theological school. Present one of these gentlemen scholars that accept our understanding of the 2300 days and 1844.
I donât know your credentials but exegesis is more than looking up a Greek or Hebrew word in a lexicon. So, if your credentials are of scholarly value perhaps you should present your unique argument to a scholarly theological journal outside the SDA church.
So, these are part of the reason why this M.Div. from RTS., finally came to the point I no longer choose to be an SDA. I still have fond memories of being in the church, chilhood and wonderful friends but the entire narrative and how it ultimately affects people is something I no longer choose to be associated with. I am also thankful I am not bitter, just sorrowful and choose to move on.
Blessings as far as your desire to follow what you choose to be true.
Regards
David Larson, I am sorry if I was a co-partner responding to Peter Marks in somehow getting away from your articleâŚbut somehow maybe it adds to itâs meaning.
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Donât get in the Plymouth Fury, either in Genesis or Jeremiah.
I prefer to ride in the disciples Honda.
Itâs fast, itâs bigger than your clown car, and itâs turbocharged.
They ALL arrived with a BIG wind in ONE Accord.
Astute readers might stumble upon this if they have read several versions of their bibles.
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I assume you are refusing all such labels: progressive, conservative, historical, liberal, etc., and thank you for standing in opposition to the free application of such labels. There may be some views that appear to qualify for the label, but the label always carries with it much baggage. Each individual believer may not want to claim or carry every single piece of that baggage. Itâs difficult to think that families can enjoy much unity if members of the family insist on categorizing and labeling other members. Itâs the same within a church family. It is good practice to label a viewpoint rather than a person. Viewpoints can change and they frequently do, but labeled people tend to carry those labels long after they have changed their views.