“We Will Not be Deterred.” NAD Year-end Meetings Day 1


#62

So it’s this vote, on women’s spiritual gifts, that Africa is using to punish for slavery?


(Thomas J Zwemer) #63

One thing should be absolutely clear. Christainity is not denominational based. The Gospel is a universal Good News. It has specific application to a sin sick world. For sure the Gospel is not bound to the 28 or to who ever heads the General Conference Of Seventh Day Adventists. Let us rejoice that even in these times there are Gospel preachers of both genders within Adventism. May they increase, male and female. It is not that the Third World supported Ted but that neither have a clue of the Gospel. Lead Kindly Light.


#64

And that is where the Holy Spirit is moving mightily. Lead on, Oh King Eternal!


(Nathan Robinson) #65

Jackson’s “fake news” comment puzzles and annoys me. Who is “fake news?” Is it Advent World, the Review, Spectrum, Adventist Today?

Jackson did the NAD and Jesus no service with that truly ridiculous statement. The irony of a Canadian sounding like D. Trump stuck me hardest. This was a species of straw man argumentation that made Jackson’s entire statement lose credibility. I agree with the thrust of his speach, but he lost me at “fake news.”

Did this not bother anyone else? IMHO Jackson needs to clarify what he means.


(Robert Lindbeck) #66

I disagree with both the words and the sentiment of this statement. It is not time for Africa to stand up to the West.

It is time for Africa to stand WITH the West, and for the West to stand WITH Africa. It might sound very cliche, but anything else is disunity.


(Robert Lindbeck) #67

@gideonjrn, according to the consistency of your post, “nobody has a clue about anything”. Might I suggest that you include your self in this.

As the President of the NAD, Elder Jackson has as much responsibility to be a “cheerleader” as he does to be an administrator. This is the same for any senior leader in a company. If he were a minister attached to a local church you would expect a different type of sermon/speech.


(Tim Teichman) #68

Well that sounds good, but what do you mean? What does it mean to you in this context to stand with?


(Robert Lindbeck) #69

@timteichman, now is not the time to be seeking retribution for past grievances. Yes, the West did wrong (a long list of wrongs - including but not limited to - slavery, cultural domination …) The West cannot right those wrongs, we can only ask for forgiveness. Africa (as a collective of individual nations) has a choice - retribution or forgiveness.

I have seen a lot of comments on this thread that do not look like “asking for forgiveness” and a lot like “I am not going to forgive”. This type of sentiment and language will only perpetuate the obvious divide.

“Standing with” is ending the divide - ask and give forgiveness. Understand the West did wrong. Understand Africa (and a lot of other mission areas) were wronged. “Standing with” is about reaching across the divide and giving what the other needs to do the mission in their territory - resources, autonomy…

There is an old saying…If you ever go out to seek revenge, dig two graves.


(Tim Teichman) #70

I’ve seen this sort of suggestion many times. However, when contemplating it now, I realize I don’t have a sense of what the SDA Church did that was wrong. They didn’t enslave people, for example, and they didn’t compel anyone to be subjected of cultural domination: If you didn’t like what was taught, you didn’t need to join up.

Are you saying that the SDA Church came to countries in Africa and committed offenses that are remembered and that cause church members emotional pain? If so what were those offenses?

I have no sense of what they may be.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #71

Glacier View, Davenport, WO, The Church is killing its self with many little cuts. Two graves indeed—A cemetery. Roberts Rules of Order not the Holy Spirit has been the surrogate Champion for the GC.


(Robert Lindbeck) #72

Christianity in its purest form is more Eastern - Middle East, Asia - than it is Western. When Christian missionaries went back to the East - Africa, Asia - they took a brand of christianuty that was largely unrecognisable as originating in the East because it was so wrapped up in Western culture - What was distinctly christian? What was Western culture?

The irony is that churches in the West have seen, or at least some are starting to see the difference in our practice of christianity. This is so particularly in the orthodoxy of worship. In some churches they are moving back to a more Eastern form of christianity. The continents of Africa, Asia and the islands of the Pacific are “stuck” with the transplanted christian practices of the “old West”.

Our missionaries didn’t enslve them physically, but they did treat their culture as second class. They did treat them a “ignorant”. They did impose western culture in the guise of christianity. It was deliberate, it was intentional. The early missionaries took the christianity they knew and practiced, and transplanted it to other places. However, no one could forsee the consequences of this 100 years down the track. If we were starting foreign missionary work today, we would tackle it differently.

How different would the church be today, how rich the experience of journeying among christian churches on other continents if we had missioned christianity alone.


(Tim Teichman) #73

I don’t think you answered my question, which was:

I ask because I can’t think of ever hearing of anything it did, and so I don’t know what the proposed historical grudge is, the grudge which must exist as you’ve suggested we need to set it aside and stand together.

If I’m going to ask for forgiveness for something I did, I need to know what that is. I’m also struggling with the idea of asking for forgiveness for something someone else did. I don’t see any cause for doing such a thing.


#74

Your comparison of Pastor Jackson to President Trump would surely cause our Canadian NAD president, who, perhaps you failed to notice is quite liberal politically, a case of severe heartburn.

But feel free to kid yourself.

I have much more to say on the subject of our obviously, proudly ungodly US President, but for the sake of unity, I will refrain.


#75

Thank you for the chart - it is good to have hard numbers.

The sad thing about looking at that is the obvious fact that ALL the growth is among the immigrant Adventists, so call “language” groups. And within themselves they are not really growing either. It’s really just the actual number of faithful coming into the country that gives this false impression of growth.

There is a huge amount of apathy and spiritual coolness among the NAD, and no amount of pep talking can hide it. Pastor Jackson is well aware of it and speaks of it frequently, but he is still victim suffering lack of sense of emergency. Our people here in North America are not responding, and the NAD is not willing to spend the advertising dollars that the Mormons spent in the past decades to ensure 1) awareness among the general North American public of Adventists (beyond the sadly flawed example of Ben Carson. I had such high hopes for him) 2) positive attitude toward Adventists. Meanwhile one of our colleges closed with nary a shrug from our leadership.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #76

Early in his tenure Elder Ted Wilson used the word Dire or Grave in his hunt for none compliance to any of the Fundamental Beliefs to which he has drawn a line in the sand over WO. At the least it is not a growth tactic in his home country. Confrontation is a devilish tactic. It cannot be said too often that salvation is not denominational based. Church should be a place of Gospel based Grace and fellowship. If not vote with your feet.


#77

I assume you are deliberately alluding to Gandhi with your closing words: Lead Kindly Light. Gandhi’s favorite hymn.

He was one of the best examples of a child of the universal Gospel you refer to, one who could not get past the “christian” hypocrisies. So many hypocrisies!


(Robert Lindbeck) #78

Yes. As outlined previously. The offenses don’t need to be legal. They are moral injustices.


(Tim Teichman) #79

So, you’re not going to answer the question then? In that case, please stop asserting there are offenses that the western church should apologize for.


(Robert Lindbeck) #80

If you are looking for day/date/year and time? No, I don’t have that, but perhaps you should reread what I have written.

You can add to that - paying 2nd class wages, 2nd class accomodation, the whole “We are better than you” attitude.

You don’t even have to look overseas to find examples. The treatment of the indigenous Americans by christian missionaries, specifically taking their children, educating/indoctrinating them as white because the indigenous culture was considered 2nd class. It happened in Australia also - “The Stolen Generation”. What was considered “the right thing to do” at that time was an egregious mistake.

Perhaps the thing the western church should most apologise for is dressing up western cultural practices and preacing them as christianity. Go to almost any Adventist church outside of the US or Australia, even if it is not in English. It doesn’t matter if you don’t speak the local language. The behavioural practices are same as a western church - even the parts that are not specifically “christian”.

Christians should be more willing to apologise for a moral injustice committed than a legal injustice uncovered.


#81

Significant statement since the gospel is a foundational, significant element.

I take it to a broader level. Most of the 2 billion+ “Christians” don’t know what it is either. The good news has been replaced with theological “fake news”