“We Will Not be Deterred.” NAD Year-end Meetings Day 1


(Kim Green) #102

I can understand, Nathan. However, I have heard worse from others higher in the Food Chain of the Church…I suppose that I am getting immune to spin (for better or for worse). :slight_smile:


#103

And of course the “Gadventist.”

Adventists get around.


(Kim Green) #104

We really should have a contest…I love yours! :laughing:


(Nathan Robinson) #105

All I can say is that Jackson picked a strange moment to do a little Trump immitation.


(DENNIS HOFER) #106

I don’t have a College degree, or a very large vocabulary, even when cussing.
So I depend upon stories to get the ‘feel’ of my ‘points’ across.

I live in the ‘West’. I am not ‘black’, nor ‘white’, but pink and orange. My Italian, Catholic, ‘Marcon’ (The ‘i’ at the end was probably robbed at Ellis Island under the benevolent gaze of the ‘Statue of Liberty’.) ancestors were also slaves, forced into the ‘West’s’ coal mines to feed families who died young anyway. And, they were always in debt to the only, ‘Company Store’ owned by the mining companies, as was the housing they were forced to rent.

As a child, my great-uncle ‘Gus’ got caught stealing from the ‘Company Store’ just before his father died in a coal mining accident, and he was put in jail. So, he was not there as the oldest son to help his widowed mother when the ‘Company’ men came with papers promising to get her oldest son out of jail if she would simply put her English-illiterate ‘mark’ on them.

She did. And, in the crooked deal, she also ignorantly ‘marked’ away any possible death benefits from the ‘Company’ responsible for her husband’s death. She soon died – a Catholic in a Catholic-hating ‘Protestant’ ‘West’ – leaving her oldest daughter, ‘Nina’ (a.k.a. ‘Mary’) with 3 younger brothers to raise along with her own growing family.

At no more than 15 years old, Nina had found an alcoholic, German-speaking immigrant husband who would take her. You see, an Italian suitor had already ‘marked’ her as a whore for refusing to marry him. He jumped out of bushes as she was on her way to mass, and sliced off the bottom of her left ear and down her cheek with a razor, leaving a wide, shiny, white, puckered scar.

She was able to send 2 of her younger brothers to a Catholic orphanage, and finally moved with her husband to a tiny shack in small rural Michigan community where a couple of free black families had settled, one of them being a major property owner. That is where I grew up in the 1950s and 60s during the ‘Black’ race riots in America. Half way between Chicago and Detroit.

Before I was baptized at age 11, I had read ‘Black Like Me’. I had seen ‘White’ American magazine articles reporting on and condemning the KKK lynchings and tortures in the South where I did not live, and did not want to. I had a ‘Black’ non-SDA friend at the SDA school I attended, and my youngest sister worked as a babysitter for the daughter of the ‘Black’ major landowners who lived higher up the hill from us, and she loved it ! Basketball star Lew Alcindor a.k.a. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was one of my heroes, and I listened to and loved Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, WAR, Sly and the Family Stone, Jimi Hendrix, Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin . . . and I voted for Obama. As a fresh new Medical Transcriptionist my wife also loved working for, and learning from, a sweet ‘Black’ woman with her own transcription business.

When my non-SDA father finally began to succeed in his own business, he hired a Jehovah’s Witness man who was ‘Black’ and had a drinking problem. My father – a child of an alcoholic immigrant father who had had to watch for his own father at quitting time at a Pittsburgh brewery in order to pick him up from the ground, drunk, when he would collapse on the way home – saw to it that he got a ride in to work when necessary, anyway.

When I became a construction electrician foreman, my employer made a political move and hired a ‘Black’ young man whose work experience was in a J.C. Penny department store, but his mother worked for a judge in the major city where their company headquarters were. ‘Sweet Kev’ as his front car plate read, came to work telling our ‘white’ crew of driving his girlfriend and friends to celebrate her birthday at a fancy restaurant, and paying $50 for steaks. Even as foreman I had to work nearly an 8-hour day to gain that kind of money just to pay our necessary bills.

‘Sweet Kev’ also did little more than stand still and complain of the cold, which finally drove the morale of the crew down so low that I pulled him off to the sunshine outside to give him a warmer place to work. I simply wanted him to locate the end of a pipe I had tied a white locating wire around as I had buried it.

The summer before the plumbers and I had each dug a 2-foot-by-2-foot trench through the building to bury our pipes. It rained that night before we could backfill. Our pipes floated to the surface as mud filled our trenches. So we had to repeat the previous day’s work.

All I asked is that ‘Sweet Kev’ dig a small hole following that wire to the outside end of 80 feet of pipe in winter sunshine. . . But I was later to be accused of ‘racism’, for daring to ask a much-better-connected, complaining ‘Black’ man to use a ‘White’ man’s shovel to simply locate the end of a pink-and-orange man’s much-harder work. . . .

As I said, even my cussing vocabulary is rather limited, so I hope you will get my ‘point’ when I say, “It takes a foul mouth to know a foul mouth.”

As for myself, I have already confessed both my ignorance and my foul mouth that too often seeks to cover for that ignorance . . .

Now, what would you 2 like to confess ?

. . . Oh, and I forgot to mention that as a child my Catholic-Italian Grandmother worked under and was taught by a ‘Black’ woman how to care for linens at the Pittsburgh hotel where she worked ? Yet, I never heard my Grandmother complain of the oppression of the ‘West’. And she retired from the paper mill having never even obtained a driver’s license.

. . . and, ‘Oh’ again. I never met my deeply-shamed great-uncle Gus, but I believe I heard he got a job as a guard or a warden at the Federal Prison in Alabama where John Mitchell was sent after ‘Watergate’.


(Red Livingstone) #107

Don’t forget the
:tomato::avocado: Saladventist :broccoli::hot_pepper:


(Robert Lindbeck) #108

Since I have been a member of the forum, I have only seen you “sit on the sidelines” and criticize. You talk about the teaching of SS lessons, but never offer solutions.
You talk about the quality of sermons, but never offer solutions.
You talk about exegesis of texts, but never engage when offered.

That is blathering from the sidelines.


#109

Good one!

Brings to mind the Haystackventist.


(Robert Lindbeck) #110

It has everything to do with discrimination. That is at the heart of what was perpetrated in the name of christianity. You, or someone you know may not have been responsible for this behaviour, but none the less it occured.

Your ignorance (willful or otherwise) of specifics is of no consequence. I have provided, in general terms how missionaries (not just Adventist missionaries) egregiously treated local populations and local workers. Your failure to acknowledge shows your “ignorance” tends to willfulness rather than otherwise.


#111

And this makes it right? Voting against spiritual gifts for women because of slavery or 1800s missionaries’ behavior? This revenge vote is to make this point?


(Robert Lindbeck) #112

@harrpa I have never said that the behaviour of either side is blameless. The West erred in their missional behaviour and attitude to what was collectively referred to as “3rd world”. That name in itself tells you the opinion of the West. This in no way justifies a “retribution” vote.

This was one of my original posts on this topic and I still stand by it.


(George Tichy) #114

There is also FAKDVENTIST, :wink:


(Nkosi) #115

Could it be that he has answered you over and over again but the answers he gave you are not what you wanted to hear or are prepared to accept


(Nkosi) #116

Sounds like the oft used "I’m not racist, I have black friends on Facebook " cliché, anyway sorry I just couldn’t get your point.


(Nkosi) #117

You miss the point. it’s not a revenge vote. but from an African or formerly disadvantaged perspective, it seems the most logical reason for the rebellion is supremacy, you c , the vote worked fine as long as the policies in line with the west were adopted. but the moment the vote went against the west all of a sudden we hear certain pple talking about some sort of cessation. it is suggested that Africa didn’t vote according to what they were convicted of in scripture, it is also suggested that we didn’t vote according to our conscience but were bribed, if you don’t c the double standards in this you will not see the insult in it either. so basically what’s being said is Africa doesn’t have the capacity to study and understand scripture and make an informed decision. it is suggested that Africa is so poor that money was more important to us than principle, problem is for over a hundred years the vote worked fine, but now that Africa has voted, one Dan Jackson says African please keep your Africa while we will keep our America. sounds much like stuff I’ve heard from a certain dictator before. So yeah forgive us for thinking this is about race more than it is about the vote. when in 1990, it was voted no, why didn’t we hear Africa being made the devil? Oh because it was brothers in nad who voted against it. now that Africa votes that way, all sorts of accusations are levelled against Africa.


#118

Indeed it is Robelle and thank you.

To the readers what is more is what does this concept of west and Africa adversarial rhetoric have to to with anything? Seriously why are we accusing each other of being guilty of crime because of a casual association of race or national association?

I have watched a lot of comments go back and forth and to be honest I don’t understand what all this misdirected anger and angst is all about. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and should not be directing anger and resentment at each other like this. Our high calling is the Gospel of Jesus not to settle grievances between one nation and and another or redress abuses between peoples as if we were individually guilty of horrible crimes of petty, selfish leaders and merchants of the past.

Move the anger and resent if you must to the appropriate authority and forum.


(DENNIS HOFER) #119

The point is, like Nimrod of Babylon, you are burning bridges of trust to potential friends faster than they can be rebuilt in your lifetime. Therefore you, like Nimrod, are fast enslaving yourself to the last narrow option of either ruling or being ruled in the Earth.

‘Slavery’ is not the point to be contended, but the profiting of one’s self from that slavery-perpetuating obsession with either evil extreme mentality of ‘slave’ or ‘master’.

My immigrant ancestors enjoyed a social status in the ‘West’ even beneath that of ‘Black’ ex-slaves, yet they refused to stop enjoying their even greater freedoms . . . and I have no friends of any ‘color’ on Facebook.

Happy hunting, mighty man. Go catch and enslave yourself.
This orange and pink dog chooses to run free.


(DENNIS HOFER) #120

If we are indeed ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’, then what other forum than that found directly in Christ’s presence could possibly be more appropriate for expressing anger and resentment ? The local court system ? . . . political parties ? . . . the local ‘KKK’, or ‘Black Lives Matter’ chapters ?

If the all-knowing God and Christ are facing our barely-hidden anger and resentment in Heaven, anyway, isn’t it healthier to confess such things openly before Heaven than to continue trying to hide them behind the self-justifying ‘fig leaf’ forums of this divisive world here on Earth ? If Heaven was too ‘holy’ to deal with our infirmities, then how could Heaven become ‘Immanuel’ – God with us, sinners ? No, our only hope is to stand closely before Heaven, openly, and dare to be healed by that closeness to Heaven without which we can never become ‘brothers and sisters in Christ’…

When the current dark SDA dust finally settles before the Throne of God, right there, just might finally stand a ‘new creation’ of God’s own re-forming, and by the extreme contrast with that barely-concealing rag we have covered ourselves with for so long, we will know for certain that Christ, alone, can be humanity’s Truest Righteousness.

Satan revealed, was Satan defeated, 2,000 years ago.

Sin revealed, will be sin defeated, today.

Whom better to trust with such revelations of our weaknesses than our Elder Brother, Christ, and ‘Our Father which art in Heaven’ ?

"God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. The Lord calls upon all who believe His word to awake out of sleep. Precious light has come, appropriate for this time. It is Bible truth, showing the perils that are right upon us. This light should lead us to a diligent study of the Scriptures, and a most critical examination of the positions which we hold.
{CW 40.1}
('CW '= Councils to Writers and Editors, such as those found here at ‘Spectrum’)

God would have all the bearings and positions of truth thoroughly and perseveringly searched, with prayer and fasting. Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the word of God, so that when the testing time shall come, and they are brought before councils to answer for their faith, they may be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear."
{CW 40.2}

"Agitate, agitate, agitate! The subjects which we present to the world must be to us a living reality. It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith, we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer, but they do not honor the truth. We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny. . . .

I don’t know about the rest of you at Spectrum, but I have ignorantly missed a lot of mealsagitating’ here at Spectrum’s online forum, which has been kind enough to publish my un-ordained confessions and prayers, openly, before Heaven’s soul-searching Eyes !


#121

Dennis what are you talking about?


(George Tichy) #122

It is, unfortunately, a situation fueled by the GC with that stupid idea of trying to equate unity and uniformity. If they only stopped this crazy crusade they have been running!

The anger you mention will probably increase and exacerbate. As I read the development of this conversation I see on one side one part of the world trying to have its freedom (right) to make decisions for itself based on its own cultural configuration, and, on the other side, another part of the world holding a bitter attitude related to some kind of revenge (for whatever…), apparently happy and proud for being able to impose their peculiar cultural configuration on the whole world.

Time for the NAD and any other region(s) to disentangle themselves from these crazy ropes. It’s very unfortunate that the GC has absolutely no ability or intention to manage this tragic situation.