“We Will Not be Deterred.” NAD Year-end Meetings Day 1


Thanks David,
I read the Exodus chapters first.
It appears that the video is not available. However, I did watch it 4 years ago.
My handle was yoyo7th then. I think I got dinged by admin.

You can see my comments which were met with the usual SDA gainsay mode.
I did give a favorable opinion of the sermon…but that was 4 years ago…and I am more perceptive now considering my experience dealing with inept teachers.
Do you know if Dan does any exposition of Paul’s writings?

I usually hear SDA use OT passages or do topical, springboard sermons off of a single or few NT verses…like Dan did at the NAD 2018 sermon.



I am here so you can try to understand and experience what Jesus meant by Him saying…“Love your enemies”

(Tim Teichman) #125

Well, that’s a general hint, but you have not described what the SDA Church did to earn some sort of grudge by its members as you have suggested is the case. Discrimination could be any number of many things - such as discrimination against women and suggesting they are less than men by creating roles that can only be filled by men. And then claiming this is Gods way or some such nonsense.

I just asked a question and again you’ve answered with an ambiguous answer - and then loaded on a personal attack.

I don’t think it is reasonable on your part to expect anyone here to know what you think the west has done, or to know all of the things the west has actually done. It seems you are in or from Africa and are writing to support Africa with your arguments, but then when asked about them you won’t give specifics.

If it is as you have asserted that the representatives from Africa may have voted in a way they saw as a form of punishment to the NAD and other western portions of the church, then 1) that is terrible and 2) there ought to be an understanding of what specifically they are upset about - one that is based in fact.

If not, then you’re making the African representatives look worse and not better. Voting out of spite is a petty and awful thing to do, and if the spite isn’t based on anything real that the SDA church as an organization has actually supported, then it’s even worse.

It seems to me that when you posted your assertions and got responses, you’d be eager to explain your ideas with more detail and not accuse those asking for more details or explanation of being willfully ignorant. The fact that I asked what you mean suggests that indeed I am ignorant on the topic. That is the point of asking and the point of sharing things here - so we can all learn. By refusing to offer support for your assertions, you leave your readers to guess what you mean.


The SDA leadership has too long consulted with ‘outside’ legal and political help in dealing with problems that should have been kept within the SDA ‘family’. The Orlando SDA business that sold Pathfinder paraphernalia around the world was dealt with in public court by the GC, instead of handling any differences and/or debates within the ‘family of Christ’, as Ellen taught. (Story reported in Spectrum)

When Ben Carson broke SDA tradition and ran for ‘Commander-in-Chief’ of all U.S. wars and chief executive, in charge of executing any possible National Sunday Laws, a Chicago political consulting firm whose chief love is dirty Chicago politics was hired to consult with the SDA leaders on how to handle the potential public question: “What is an Adventist ?” Not the SDA ‘family’ ‘experts’.

The only proper forum for a family that wants to remain a family is the family forum. When the family involves the public in their affairs and issues, then the public tends to replace the family, the ‘state’ makes itself welcome in a ‘church’ family, and you have a ‘papacy’.

So, the most appropriate forum for dealing with any racial bitterness in the SDA church is an SDA forum such as Spectrum. Do you think the Review and Herald will host such an open discussion ? Or will they continue to hide any discomforting issue – such as 1888 --behind positive marketing ‘spin’, as usual ?

Of course, this is just my opinion, and will matter even less in a couple of weeks as my wife and I leave the SDA ‘family’. So, rest easy. I’m no threat !

(Steve Mga) #127

Dennis –
Yes. the business selling Pathfinder supplies thought they were just being helpful,
and thought they were promoting Pathfinders.
TRAGIC! That the Administrators of the Church would haul someone who thought
they were being helpful in a missionary way into the Courts of the Land and accuse
them of something that perhaps they were not.
And FORCE them to discontinue their Missionary Project in such a public way.

[Dennis – I hope that doesn’t mean you are leaving Spectrum]


You said “that Africa” .

Is it the “White” colonized Africa?

The west self serving white christians in Africa. Please vamoose.

African women are the solid spiritual staples in African homes.

Much more so reasons the white west the America born SDA the GC to the like of TW wild wild west please vamoose from Africa…go home.

Women Ordination an epic a cultural and ancestral natural spiritual phenomenon.

Whats Africa stays as black Africa.

The universal SDA masters…eat your censorship.

(Tim Teichman) #129

You make it sound like @harrpa is dismissive, which she was not.

She asked you a question which you didn’t answer. “So it’s this vote, on women’s spiritual gifts, that Africa is using to punish for slavery?”

That’s rather offensive. You might as well ask all the Africans who reside all over the world to leave.

It reads like you support the idea that WO should be practiced based on regional and cultural norms. Sounds good to me.

What censorship? I don’t think that’s been a topic here for awhile…

(Kim Green) #130

Hilarious! Another great one. :slight_smile:

(Kim Green) #131

Oh…that is fantastic, too…all are on a role!

(Kim Green) #132

The GC would do well to employ a team of professional “Crisis” PRs…but I seriously doubt that this will be the case. My guess is the typical thinking is that we are on the side of “righteousness” and we should just “pray about it”.

(Kim Green) #133

Oh…I WAS wondering why you were here! :thinking::laughing: I understand now it is to “teach” all of us true “love” and patience…makes perfect sense now. :wink:


I think I should.
Clean break and all that.
I never thought I’d make it to 21 before Jesus returned, or the Viet Nam draft and war got me. (Neither did. All ended when I was 17.) Never had dreams of what I wanted to be when I grew up. Didn’t think I would.

Now, I’m surprised to discover I’m a ‘fossil’ of an ‘old white man’ in the SDA church. High blood pressure risk, numb extremities at night in bed from knotted ‘work’ muscles that no longer relax, just pinch nearby nerves and tear. ( And just a year ago my foreman told me I worked like a 26-year-old. Now I can barely get through a 10-hour day on my feet. Whatever happened, happened fast.) 3 surgeries for skin cancer on my nose, (Wasn’t sure I was going to have one left after a 5-hour, triple-dip Moh’s last March. ) Losing my sense of balance, hearing, taste, clear sight . . . etc. In 3 years I will have outlived every Hofer male I know of. We die young. Can’t say I’m not looking forward to it. Seen enough of the same old “McD-” world everywhere I travel for work, and still too frustrated because I can’t see enough of my sweetheart wife, at home. . . and sadly, I know an even older tramp electrician from South Carolina who should have retired at home long ago, but now has to raise a 6-year-old grandson with his wife . . . all while the SDA GC still claims to be successfully in charge of finishing ‘the work’ so Jesus can come ‘soon’, after 170 too many years of tired old men and women facing decay, instead.

The SDA church is in a confused mess, and my wife and I are clearly not the answer, or it wouldn’t be, would it ? It truly scares me to see the ambivalent monster it has persistently become in the last century, and I would rather swim the cold waters in peace, alone, with my wife, than be sucked under with that broken ‘Titanic’, or fight over the last seat in a ‘lifeboat’. Neither can I buy the excuse that, 'I’ve read the end of the book . . . ’ and the SDA church wins. Even Ellen said that, ‘The promises and threatenings of God are, alike, conditional.’ If even God does not get His own way, why should the SDA church insist on getting theirs ?

So, I should really just drop anything and everything to do with current Adventism if I’m not currently willing to be an Adventist. Its time for running-out-of-time-triage. Let the younger, wiser and more educated techie generation take their best shot at it all, with me out of their firing line. Wish I hadn’t wasted the time trying to make a difference that I have already – again – and anonymity was a terrible thing to waste even a whisker of, in spite of the fact that I did. Tired of failures, too. Time to make peace with the ones in my face thus far, and get ready for the final one before I get discouraged or something worse than simply weary.

Thanks for listening, though, and carry on.
We can’t all be me.
There’s bright hope in that thought ! :sunglasses:

(Cfowler) #135

What book says that? Not the Bible!!!

Take some time to listen to other good Christian pastors/teachers. Your walk with God shouldn’t leave you in shreds.

(Kim Green) #136

Dennis…I disagree that you have nothing to offer this site. You are unique and I have enjoyed your contributions. You are hardly the only one here with old age symptoms, aches and pains! If you really need to go- that’s fine but don’t do it because you perceive that there is nothing more you can comment upon. The SDA church is ultimately in God’s hands…the rest of us just do our best with His help. :smiley:

(Steve Mga) #137

Dennis – just because you are about my age [I was 23 in 1966 and was drafted into the Navy because of VietNam], is NOT a reasonable excuse for leaving Spectrum
Physical ailments [as long as they leave at least 2 fingers for typing on your computer]
should not be a reason to leave our community.
Remember this – even Jesus [the perfect human] had failures, and he was depressed,
and disappointed because of them. But he didn’t stop finding Joy in this life.

You do have a certain amount of Age-related Depression that needs to be treated. Since
you are a VET, I would recommend trying Vet Services First. Then perhaps someone
from the community where you live. Help you get a better focus on all the good things
you have accomplished in your life that have contributed to you being successful.
I wrote this in ALL Seriousness.

(Robert Lindbeck) #138

Not sure why you are singling out SDA missionaries. I think I have been referring in my posts to Western christian missionaries. And yes, some of the attitudes outlined below were seen with Adventist missionaries. I will say this, not all missionaries were like that. Most however were happy to to exist in a two tier system, or were powerless to change it.

@timteichman not sure how specific you want me to be. I would have thought that this (see below) is sufficient. Giving you anymore detail serves no resonable purpose.

Not all of these qualify as discrimination but a large portion of them do.

This is not a personal attack, merely an interpretation of what I read.

Read what I have quoted above from previous posts.

I have not asserted that Africa voted as a form of retribution. Below is my original post. It is not asserting as you suggest. Other on this discussion have suggested this.

@timteichman I have no idea of the motive for the way individuals. I can guess, I can speculate but that would be baseless, which is why I have made no assertion (to my knowledge) as to individuals motives. If you feel I have, that was not my intention and I apologise for unintentionally misleading you.

What I have advocated is that the solution requires both sides of the divide to find a way forward. One that is mutually acceptable. What I mentioned in my earlier post is one way. If both sides are not willing to accept responsibility for past/present actions there is no way forward. Divisions will remain, suspicion and resentment will deepen


Voting is a “western culture.” Indeed. What is the role of voting in the New Testament?

Am I correct in discerning that, in your view, the Western church must apologize to Africa?

(Robert King) #140

I don’t mean to be judgmental and only pray that he would see things different than he has for several years now. I heard him speak at camp meeting in Indiana in 2010 or 2011. I thought at the time it was an okay sermon, but then again I was just a babe in the faith then.

I see things from a different perspective now and even then but didn’t realize what was going on in the church.


Sticking together is how we survive and your experience, thoughts and ideas are always welcome :slight_smile:

We fellowship together by sharing our pain, our hopes, our confusion, our victories, our tears, our joys and lift each other up when we are not strong. We do have a loving God and you can be sure that he hears your prayers, he knows and he is with you right now and always. I can tell you have experienced like myself that Gods mighty hand is not to short to save nor His strength to little to lift you up. He knows your thoughts, your worries and He is with you right now where ever you are and can guide you.

The Lord says, “Call upon Me in the day of trouble.” Ps. 50:15. He invites us to present to Him our perplexities and necessities, and our need of divine help. He bids us be instant in prayer. As soon as difficulties arise, we are to offer to Him our sincere, earnest petitions. By our importunate prayers we give evidence of our strong confidence in God. The sense of our need leads us to pray earnestly, and our heavenly Father is moved by our supplications.

I like the word ‘importunate’ because it means persistent, especially to the point of annoyance. I have had as I am sure you as well low points in life and it was only because I clung to Jesus and His promise of deliverance that we were. Situations that were akin to the children of Israel with the Egyptian army closing in from behind, on the right and left impassible terrain and in front the Red Sea and no human means of escape from the situation. But by clinging to His promise I have kept going forward and even had to get my feet wet like Moses before the sea parted before a way of escape was made. You can be sure he will help you and your wife.


What book says that?

Was chosen Israel in God’s hands? When it went into Babylon? When it rejected Jesus as Messiah?

How many SDA think they are in God’s hands when they are jumping into the hands of the world all of the time and trying to jump back into God’s hands…once a week (if even that) for a couple hours on Saturday mornings?