When Religious Liberty Becomes Meaningless

Below is an excerpt from a document written by Dakota health regarding the use of fetal tissue. While they claim fetal tissue was not required to “produce” the vaccine they were used as proof of concept. I find it unthinkable to have anything put into my body that was crated at the expense of the murder of a child. The link to the full document is below that.

The mRNA COVID-19 vaccines produced by Pfizer and Moderna do not require the use of any fetal cell cultures in order to manufacture (produce) the vaccine.
Early in the development of mRNA vaccine technology, fetal cells were used for “proof of
concept” (to demonstrate how a cell could take up mRNA and produce the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein) or to characterize the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein.

This is intentional narrative that simply doesn’t hold up in every day reality of people, especially given that people [with strong immunity] in the past two years managed just fine, and that people who had Covid do have natural immunity that does quite well.

It doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t get the vaccine. It does however mean that your position on this is conflated and exaggerated.

You are playing a game conflation which is very similar to the game policy and news orgs played with IVM until they are called out on it, and are left squirming about their license to lie about it. I can guarantee you that the moment you are faced with someone who understands what they are talking about, and who holds you accountable on these conflations that you are making … you’d be squirming very similarly.

When you say something like below… it also applies to you.

Individuals who had Covid, survived, and have strong immune system… got antibodies stimulated… can choose not to vaccinate without engangering anyone… with similar effects as though they did get vaccine.

Arguing from aggregate in order to conflate and drive policy objective IS DISHONEST. It doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t be vaxxed. But to intentionally omit the fact that there are those who don’t want vax because they got Covid and now have antibodies… is misleading, especially if you are going to generalize and say that those people are irresponsible and don’t care about health of other.

You’re free to choose. We all are. But others are free to keep you out of their business, workplaces, and public spaces because you won’t take the necessary measures to not only protect yourself, but also to protect them by not getting vaccinated.

Additionally, you’re not getting what I shared from Job. You claimed faith in God will protect you from contracting the virus. You prayed and that settles it. Job also had faith in God, and was struck with diseases, and much more. Your faith claims don’t square with the Bible, what genuine faith is, or how life in this world works. You are touting presumption as faith.

This is just not biblical. It’s a distortion of biblical faith. You can consider my push back to be unloving. I consider such distortion to be such, and leads to the results we’re seeing from many conservative Christians.



It’s an incoherent way, which you can’t rationally justify if we had a conversation.

I can say that to just about anything, including you. Please prove to me that you aren’t infected and spreading Covid right now? Can you?

You can reference your vax, but people with vax do get infected. What could you possibly do or say to prove so someone that you aren’t spreading a hidden disease, if I choose to play precrime and say that you are older person in a risk group of compromised immunity, and thus should be barred from public places because you are running around spreading disease.

You are unjustifiably conflating vaccination with immunity, and lack of vaccination with lack of immunity.

You aren’t doing it based on scientific data that doesn’t support your assertion. You are doing it on basis of policy narrative that plays aggregate odds, and then transitioning into playing discriminatory precrime, and treating people like they are criminals subclass of humans.

I strongly suggest you check your attitudes and facts.

It’s a fact that your immunity gets weaker with age. It’s a fact that older people are more likely to get sick … with or without vaccine. It’s a fact that an vaccinated 15 yo will have stronger immunity than vaccinated 60 year old.

You are spreading misinformation when you claim that we should keep people from living a normal life because they don’t see it necessary to compound risk of vaccination after they already went through Covid and got an immunity. YOUR KNOW that’s true. That’s the worst part about it.

You do know that VAERS is a raw, unedited, unverified adverse reporting system, right? Sort of like a tip line. As anyone who has ever monitored (or heard about monitoring) a tip line knows, many of the tips are worthless. Without thorough vetting, the data in VAERS is worthless. After checking the many reports so far, there are no confirmed deaths attributable to the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer & Moderna). Not only that, there have been no debilitating side-effects either, only short-term, generally mild side-effects, and a small number of more acute effects that resolve in a matter of days or, at most, a few weeks. Thus, the vaccine represents essentially zero risk of death and it has been clearly demonstrated that the vaccine has saved many lives so far.

Not really. If you refuse to do something that has been thoroughly demonstrated to be protective of others, there are only two main ways to understand your response. 1) you do not understand or believe that your lack of action causes harm and thus you choose not to be vaccinated out of ignorance, or 2) you know that your lack of action does cause harm to others but you still refuse to do so because you do not think it is your responsibility to care for your neighbor, i.e. you don’t care about others.


Interesting. You seem to love this word and you do the same thing yourself at least as much, if not more, than I do. And in some of the places where you claim I do, I do not. Oh well.

This is far from settled science. I do not have the time to discuss the details, but it is by no means clear yet that people who get the virus are as well protected as those who are vaccinated. Add to that that immunity from being infected may well wain in a similar fashion to those who are vaccinated, and vaccination still remains an important tool, whether or not one has had the virus.


It doesn’t have to be a settled science to be provisionally true from our past understanding of how immune system works. The burden of proof is on you to show that these people are both irresponsible and a danger to society, or stop speculatively accusing them based on arguments from ignorance. That’s where I find your position to be dishonest.

It’s not the question about whether vax is an effective tool. Clearly it is. It’s a question of you bating with a claim to have “science on your side”, and then whipping up a switch of “science isn’t settled” when challenged on basic facts of immunology.

I’m willing to give you a benefit of the doubt in case where you specifically addressing a category of people who never had covid, who generally disregard hygiene, and who don’t care about wellbeing of other with “I can do what I want” argument. I agree there.

But, category of unvaxxed is much broader than above. Lumping everyone together and treating them as the same probably is a good indicator that someone doesn’t care about people that much either beyond ideological convergence. I hope that’s not what you are doing.

If I am doing that, I certainly want to know where, and would be happy to avoid doing that if corrected.

The question is why? When the medical establishment has all the means and viable structure to properly report legitimate cases of issues with vaccines… why would they structure VAERS in a way in which it can be outright dismissed? And why wouldn’t they have a more reliable mechanism that one could legitimately refer to in order explore safety issues of vaccines?

Why would CDC stop tracking breakthrough Covid cases except for the ones which end up in hospitalization… and then circularly refer to that data to imply that breakthrough cases are rare?

Great article. Thank you! It is really sad to see not only many members but also some pastors and a handful of individuals with medical education lecturing in churches, making videos, etc. making up data, presenting bias views, misinforming others. Unfortunately, these practices do not lead to anything good. They divide churches, cause members to leave their churches, etc. Reasonable people should speak up more often to counteract the influence of these bad actors.

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Oh please! Tell me where the highest rates of transmission and infection are happening in the states. Almost all areas where vaccine resistance is highest and vaccine rates are lowest. You can spin it in all kinds of directions, but the correlations are blatant. Within counties and states where vaccination rates are lowest, transmission and hospitalizations seem to be highest.

With that said, people are free to not get vaccinated. But, others are free to restrict access to those people, whether it’s to restaurants, businesses, workplace spaces, etc. Choices have consequences.

And, I can send you my latest covid test, from a few days ago. It’s negative. :laughing:



And as always, no minds were changed.


true, but it’s still useful to have these conversations go to their full limit…this way it becomes clear what each commenter thinks and feels…

stringing everything out is an effective way for various views to be laid side by side and compared…the truth of something usually becomes evident, whether all commenters acknowledge it or not…

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Oh my. I wonder why?

Oh, so there’s no data composition in which is which then eh? You are running with a bias that will play “let’s just use common sense whenever it’s convenient”?

So, how do you know a large number of these cases aren’t coming from vaxxed if it’s something CDC admittedly not tracking? And how do you even control based on temp, geographic distribution, population density, age in these cases?

Oh wait… you as a man of science… don’t. You look at state A has X, and state B is Y and you corelate.

And yet… you will have to explain how is it that a state like Massachusetts with 70% vax rate has a recent daily average of 1,429 cases, while a state like SC has around the same with vax rate of 50%?

Well, of course… you will say SC is more rural. It’s more to the South with climate not hitting fall yet, etc.

Hence, playing these statistical games is rather dumb unless you are actually planning to control for all of that.

But yeah, clearly you run with assumption that cases are coming from unvaxxed, even though CDC pulled the rug from under that data… just in case it happens to show something they may not like to see.


…And the truth is that all humans must be allowed the freedom to choose if they want to undergo an injection of an experimental concoction and their rights to employment, shopping, travel, etc should not be infringed on. Praise the Lord for God given human rights!
Just use common sense and logic and choice. Listen to all the media, listen with caution even from CNN and the likes of them who have misinformation and are not so credible, do your research and keep an open mind, then allow your developed wisdom to choose what is best for you and don’t let others make the decision for you.

Spectrum’s article, “When Religious Liberty Becomes Meaningless” could better be called “When Spectrum Becomes Meaningless”—religious liberty is not meaningless .

The writer was “extremely excited and thankful…to see the church take a public stance against those spreading misinformation in its midst” (referring to those opposed to the shot which is not a true vaccine in the sense of isolating an organism and attenuating it so the body can overcome it and make its own antibodies.

The writer’s applaud of ‘science’ as truth reminds me of a conference I attended with my zoology profession in Washington DC where hundreds of scientists all believed in the biblical account of creation, yet were in a distinct minority.

The Bible does not teach truth based on the majority or appeals to science. All five texts with “physicians” in the King James have a negative context suggesting a serious problem.

God declares “the end from the beginning,” Isaiah 46:10. In the book of beginnings we see Joseph asked the physicians to embalm his father, Genesis 50:2. This suggests that they were losing so many patients that they also did the embalming. And yes, the formaldehyde used in embalming is also part of many vaccines today!

Christ healed a woman with an issue of blood who spent all her money on physicians and was no better, but women are having issues of bleeding as a result of the shot—the Bible is more relevant to current issues that a superficial scan would suggest to most shot-takers.

In John 5, the pool of Bethesda had a vast throng of halt, blind, lame and impotent people in five porches waiting in vain for an angel to trouble the waters for a cure (myth) when there would be a stampede. But we have a pool of Bethesda today! Bethesda Mary land [sic—Mary land surrounds half of DC] is the home of National Institutes of Health where tax dollars are pooled to do drug research and then there is a stampede that also injures some.

When asked about the end of the world, Christ said to understand the book of Daniel and in Daniel 1, Daniel wisely opted out of government healthcare in favor of a plant- based diet. The British Medical Journal reports a 73% less severity of covid on a plant-based diet in 568 healthcare workers who got covid.

It’s a sad fact that the best and brightest people went to the SDA hospital Battle Creek a century ago—the patient roster included Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Luther Burbank, JC Penny, all wanting drugless care and only two of nearly 500 patients died of the Spanish Flu that had a 10% mortality in contrast to less than 0.1% now, but Loma Linda has no great names flocking to it for drugless care—we joined with pharmakeia, the Greek word in Rev 18:23 that deceives “all nations.” We are called out of Babylon in Rev 18:2-4. Really?

This writer has three degrees in science, BA, MD, MPH, also board-certified Internal Med before teaching Health Science at LLU, where Dr. Hardinge (PhD in pharmacology) was amazed that “they are starting to call medical care healthcare” ~ 1976 or 77. As the MD founder of the School of Health, he knew that medical care is not healthcare.

In his last paragraph, the writer whose identity and credentials are absent appeals to a 1937 Advent Review for SDAs to get a vaccine…”“He must not expect God to work a miracle in caring for him when he neglects the means that God has given him for his protection.”

Daniel knew better and at 80 in great health, I know better, having filled only one prescription in my adult life. God makes every Christian responsible for his own healthcare, “whether we eat or drink or whatever we do,” health is 98% choice of what we put into our bodies.

The writer wanted science and footnotes. Would he accept an article from NIH warning of Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE) that killed the lab animals (footnotes 75, 81) so that humans are ow the lab rats and there are no long-term studies to assure safety. Two Different Antibody-Dependent Enhancement (ADE) Risks for SARS-CoV-2 Antibodies

And while we’re looking, the FDA published a long list of Adverse Vaccine Events here, https://www.fda.gov/media/143557/download (See pg 17 of the pdf—science is daunting)

There has been a massive coverup funded by pharma. 'Evil at highest level': HHS whistleblower claims massive cover-up of vaccine risks A healthcare worker saw 32 people die in a nursing home after the shot, but it didn’t make the news—it didn’t fit what they are saying—how about here?

“The world renowned Physician of Presidents, and nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize, Dr. Vladimir Zelenko” testifies to a Rabbinical court in Jerusalem–millions will die from the shot. Dr Vladimir Zelenko RisksThis Life By Saying This – [Must See!] | Health | Before It's News

Note that Israel has 85-90% fully vaccinated and that’s who fill their Intensive Care, blaming it on a Delta variant—a great coverup for a shot that’s not working, 20% effective now, so get a booster?

My study supports Zelenko from the Bible. The end-times will be “as the days of Noah” when the Flood came with Passover timing (time of Judgment in Exod 12:12) but in the 2nd spring month, later seen as a 9-11 provision. Numbers 9 :10, 11 provides for a late Passover for contact with a dead body, as Noah buried Methuselah whose name meant, When he died, it will come—Ellen White said he died the year of the Flood.

When the end-times arrive, “as the days of Noah” we may expect many (millions?) to have had contact with a dead body and we haven’t seen what this winter will bring but all bets are off on how so many feeling ok about their shot will feel a year from now.

God has more than one way to get a message across. Here’s the latest news I’ve been blessed to consider-- How the mRNA Vax Attacks God’s Name in DNA.

Scholars know the letters yod, hey, vav, hey spell God’s name and those letters in Hebrew also represent 10,5,6,5, a sequence found in the DNA double helix, but the sequence is changed by the shot.

“Just as an author or creator of some literary masterpiece has his name attached to it, the Author and Creator of the universe put His name in our DNA which has the same numeric sequencing as the Hebrew letters of His name in original manuscripts of the Bible that helps us seen a broader picture.” How the mRNA Vax Attacks God's Name in DNA -- Total Health | PRLog

For those who think the anti-vaxxers are purveyors of misinformation, let them debate an MD with the most credentials, https://rumble.com/vnbv86-winning-the-war-against-therapeutic-nihilism-and-trusted-treatme nts-vs-unte.html

And it should be of interest to know that there are indictment proceedings requested by Senator Rand Paul (MD) for lying to Congress and Spectrum readers should consider a broader spectrum of information, Fauci Indicted Boooom! (Video) | Politics | Before It's News

God says He “will make a full end of all other nations” Jer 30:3,11. We are in the early stages and the head of gold in Daniel 2 may go first when the Stone Kingdom of 144,000 takes down the image. (Note the stone is cut out of a mountain and grows to become a mountain—it’s not the 2nd coming.) There’s more to understand from Daniel than we’ve been seeing…


Thank you for acknowledging my freedom to choose. Based on your words it would seem you would love if I lost my job and could no longer go in shops to feed my family. Would it suit you better if I’d just die? If this vaccine world my friend who received that vaccine would not have contracted covid a month later. It doesn’t prevent you from catching covid. The death rate for this pandemic is less than 1%. You need to check your hear Frank, God has.

Frank your opinion doesn’t make something a fact. The fact is Frank you do not know my heart. Or do you claim to know that as well? or 1) I don’t get sick because I live my life by biblical principle and don’t consume the worlds bad food and drink. 2) I can’t control the fact that others don’t keep themselves is top shape because they love bad food and do not exercise and I can’t control the health of everyone else. You are so locked in on the worlds solutions that you can’t see Gods. Again I ask you are you an Adventist or just some advocate for the vaccine companies?

So Frank you are saying no one has died from the covid MRNA vaccines? That no one has been injured? Because if one person has died isn’t that enough for someone to question the safety of these experimental technology? I mean what if I died from It Frank? Worse what if I forced my children to get is and one of them died? I would be complicit in murder I would have sinned for harming my body because of my lack of trust in God. This idea that it’s okay to lose a few is fine when it doesn’t involve those around you. Again your lack of love a callous heart speak volumes. May God open your eyes and melt your frozen heart before the close of probation Frank.

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You addressed Bryan, not me.

With that said, I’m glad you keep yourself in top shape. Others can’t, because they live in food deserts, and work multiple jobs to make a living. It’s not always about that they’re not as righteous as you concerning diet and health…which, btw, you seem pretty proud of. My wife’s friend’s brother, a thirty year old physical trainer, in top health, died of Covid. Quickly! Physical habits help, they don’t guarantee anything.

Secondly, explain Job’s story. A man “perfect” in all his ways, a man who obviously had faith, a man who sacrificed and prayed for his children that God would keep them safe. He lost it all…his health, his means, his family…none of it remained. Your view of faith, that if you pray and do the right things, then God will keep you from this virus or any harm, while at times can seem to work, is totally deficient. It’s presumption…not faith.

Responsible faith says, I’ll do all I can to prepare myself, to address whatever needs to be addressed by me, because God won’t do my job for me, and then I’ll trust God with the results…no matter what they may be.

Good on you that you take care of your health. Not so good that you think that nothing will happen to you because of doing the right thing and faith. While it increases your chances, it’s not a guarantee. To think such is presumption…especially if life saving or health preserving means are available beyond diet and exercise.



this vintage egw, frank…good for you :slight_smile:

Frank, how about I’ll send someone to give you a life-saving CPR while your heart is still beating? Why would you reject this life-saving technique that clearly works so well ? :rofl:

I know it’s an absurd exaggeration and vaxx is more about prevention. The point is, emphasizing it as a life-saving for people whose life isn’t in danger of Covid… is very much like offering them a CPR when they don’t need it.