When Religious Liberty Becomes Meaningless

Not sure why you are calling me Frank, but I can answer these questions easily. No one has died or been permanently injured or disabled by the mRNA vaccines. No one. We are past the experimental stages for these vaccines. They show to be completely safe and as effective as many vaccines for other diseases.

By your approach to risk (that one person “might” die from the vaccine) I think you also need to stop using Tylenol. There an estimated 458 deaths due to acute liver failure each year from Tylenol overdoses each year. How can we allow access to this dangerous drug to just anyone who wants to take it? Acetaminophen and the U.S. Acute Liver Failure Study Group: lowering the risks of hepatic failure - PubMed

You might want to stop driving too, as it is a moderately high risk activity with a much higher risk of death than the COVID vaccines.


You might add to the list:
water - people can die from it in various ways
air transportation
using all manner of tools


“Lying for Jesus” again? This type of absolutist nonsense is why people don’t trust expert opinion.

Of course people got hurt by these. It’s rare, but there are risks.

In case you don’t trust VAERS data at all… There are other studies from other countries that show elevated rates of myocarditis in specific groups.

Likewise, there are known issues with blood clots. There known issues with severe immune reactions leading to neurological damage.

Yes, these are really rare, but to say NO ONE… I would really love to hear your justification for that statement.

Proud? I simply stated the fact Frank there is no pride I am bless by God to have had His sprit impress on me the words of the Bible and of a book written by Ellen White and many others in the church who follow the Bible in their diets and exercise. You are very presumptuous Frank something you’ve accused me of being. Just because someone is a physical trainer doesn’t mean they put the right nutrients into their body. Was he a trainer since birth did he put things into his body at any time that may have weakened it? We can know if He asked God to protect him. Very vague example Frank. WIth regard to Job God allowed the devil to afflict him I would consider is an honer for God to test my allegiance in that way, though I admit it isn’t something I would want to happen. A poor example assuming we are all subject to the same fate a Job. Faith is the substance of things hoped for (immunity from disease) and the evidence of things unseen (I don’t get sick). Not because of anything other than I work in harmony with God’s word to take care of my Temple and I ask God to honor the hard work and keep me healthy and for Him to keep me that way as long as I do my part and deny myself the food and drink of the world. It has worked for years, praise to God!. Not presumption my dear fellow but trust. “though He slay me I will trust Him”! Where is that last paragraph found in the Bible?

Here are a few verses on faith.
Matthew 21:22
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” (whatever you ask in pray you will receive IF YOU HAVE FAITH) tell me Frank what part of whatever doesn’t apply to protection for health?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (nothing in this verse about faith requiring responsibility)

Mark 11:22-24
And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Frank the above verse suggest faith can move a mountain surly if I heed the call to take care of my temple (do my job as you say) God can keep me from covid. Now I realize we all die that is our lot save those who will be taking up upon Christs Return but while we are here God takes care of us Jesus healed many as did the apostles they healed because of the FAITH of those individuals, yet you Frank make the statement “it’s not a guarantee” faith dear brother is absolutely a guarantee according to the world of God. In the verse above Mark 11 22-24 Jesus said, my words, if you say to this mountain, be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, it will be done for him. Frank, what part of it WILL be DONE for him do you not understand?

You might note that I did not say no serious side-effects have occurred, I said no one has died or been “permanently injured or disabled.” As you also point out, the one concern, myocarditis, is rare. Even if 1 out of 100,000 individuals suffered mild heart impairment due to myocarditis this is more than an acceptable trade-off, as permanent heart impairment from the virus itself occurs at a higher rate. I hardly call what I said lying.

Given the number of doses administered up to this point, we cannot rule out the possibility of someone being “permanently injured or disabled” as a result of the vaccine, but if this does turn out to be the case it will be at the rate of 1 out of several million, at the most. At some point we have to recognize that that level of risk is nearly indistinguishable from zero. I would wish that driving were that safe.


Which only goes to make my point that much clearer. Getting the vaccine is as safer than getting out of bed in the morning. :wink:


I somehow replied to the wrong person, apologies. But since you took the time to reply. I don’t take Tylenol. Not sure what driving has to do with vaccines. I have no control over what the vaccine does, where and when I drive, the speed I drive at, the condition I keep my automobile in, the routes I take are all within my control. If I should die from an accident to that I say what Paul said “to live is Christ and to die is gain”. You don’t get out of this life alive unless you are alive when the Lord returns. To live in fear over a virus when we have access to the great healer and protecter the awesome creator is just silly to me. You like so many others who live in fear of this so called virus are missing out on the freedom God offers to those who love Him. Freedom from fear, the hope of life beyond this one. Instead of lashing out in anger at those who trust God maybe trust God?

It’s a misleading statement in a broader scope of what we actually know. It’s not even a matter of speculation. People have been injured, and some people died due to severe reactions and complications.

Yes, we can chalk that up to being co-factor, but we can’t hide behind uncertainty when that’s not the case. These vaccines are bound to hurt and permanently disable people based on scale at which these administered alone, and that already happened. People died. People were injured. The numbers are small, yes. But when you scope risks, like in 13 yo boys age group, the risks should be a decision of parents, and not the medical establishment that treats it as aggregate statistical lump.

Same with people who know and understand their own medical history, and their docs that may have reservations.

To say no one in this conversation is absolutely ludicrous. You know it’s ludicrous.

Where have you sensed any anger in what I have written? My primary emotion around this vaccine issue is not anger, but rather great sadness for the many who have been deceived by the vaccine disinformation, some of who will die as a result. Had they been vaccinated it is likely they would not have died.

The other emotion I frequently experience is bafflement. I just can’t understand how such clear scientifically based evidence of vaccine efficacy and safety is not readily embraced by otherwise clear thinking people. That makes me then feel sad too, because their inability to accept clear evidence could mean their death or the death of others to whom they spread the virus.

What anger I sometimes feel is toward those who know the vaccine is safe and effective and yet keep spreading lies about. I refer to those prominent leaders and right-wing media purveyors that have themselves been vaccinated, and continue to discourage others from doing so. Such behavior is hypocritical and morally indefensible.


You keep doing playing the false category game.

Either certain medical procedures are necessary, or these aren’t. You aren’t God that you know the full-blown scope of long-term risk in a span of a year. You don’t know what the long-term implications for immune system are. It’s unprecedented to create that amount of viral protein that get cycled through your system, including moving past brain blood barrier. All of this is unprecedented.

So to sit and say that you are saddened that people who aren’t at risk of dying, had Covid, doing fine, aren’t vaccinated… and that leaders who are older and at risk point out that universal mandates are counterintuitive rewriting out understanding of immunology … is dishonest.

Most people in 1-19 group aren’t at risk of dying. If we are moving goalposts to severity, it’s not it either in that age group.

So to appeal to aggregate composition of risk like it’s all and the same for everyone, and point fingers at vaccinated older leaders…. is misleading.

They aren’t saying don’t take the vaccine. They are saying don’t take it if you aren’t in serious risk, because we don’t understand full scope of risk yet from vaccines, and the way these are enforced is a political policy. It’s in no way justifiable by medical understanding of immunology. If people handled Covid without these, forcing vax on them isn’t driven by scientific understanding.

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If you want to deny your anger at anyone who refuses these so called vaccines that is between you and God. I sensed zero compassion from you for my desire for free choice perhaps anger was a bit strong. I apologize. Jesus said “oh ye of little faith why are you afraid”. You either live your life FOR Christ and trust him without presumption, by a strong faith or you don’t. You can’t sit on the fence. There is no where in the Bible where it states “God created Dr. and medicine so we need to use them”. In fact we are called to be FULLY reliant on God. I do as he says to the best of my ability I eat right and exercise and I pray and ask Him to protect me from illnesses, I read the word and I ask the Holy Spirt for wisdom and understanding and I work with the Spirit to live my life accordingly. I won’t be punished for doing what the Bible calls me to do.

No where in the Bible does it tell you to take off your sandals and hope in a car, or a plane or a train or even a submarine!! Not even a yellow one! Want to get where you need to go, grab your sandals and hit the road, was good enough for Christ and His followers!!! :wink:

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Huh… I don’t know if you noticed it but your example is wrong. In the time of Moses, only those who WERE sick were supposed to isolate themselves. People who were not sick didn’t have to do that.

Being non vaccinated doesn’t mean being sick (and, by the way, being vaccinated doesn’t automatically mean not sick either).

Employers have the right to maintain a functioning company, yes, but employees also have the right to maintain a functioning body too above all when we consider that severe side-effects may occurred even death.


There is a notable difference here: no one forces you to take Tylenol or to drive. Nobody is being threatened with loss of unemployment by refusing to perform the actions that you mentioned.

This is not the case with the vaccines. Some big companies are now threatening their employees with termination if they are not vaccinated. But guess what? If something serious happens to an employee because of a vaccine (and it has happened), the employer (or the government, or the pharmaceutical companies) is not held responsible.

Is it fair?

No, but if you have a job that requires you to show up, you have to either drive there or take public transit, or some other option, all of which are less safe than getting vaccinated. So when an employer requires employees to be vaccinated, not only is that fair, it is reasonable. Any employer that wants to keep his workplace as safe as possible should require vaccination, and has every right to do so. Employees that choose not to be vaccinated can quit.

Name one case where this has happened. Employers (mostly hospitals) have required vaccines of their employees for years. Show me one case like what you describe, as in serious injury or death due to a vaccine mandate. Such cases, if they exist at all, are either extremely rare (and I know of none) or are eventually found not to have been due to the vaccine.

For legitimate cases of vaccine injury, essentially all minor, such as allergic reactions, are compensated for, if a person applies for compensation. See here: Vaccine Injury Compensation Data | Official web site of the U.S. Health Resources & Services Administration


What part of reading the scriptures in context don’t you understand? You wrench a bunch of texts out of context on faith, pay no mind to what many of them are referring to in context, don’t seem to get the book of Job and what it’s saying, but you’re lecturing on biblical faith.

Great that you’re healthy. Guess you have more faith than Paul, who prayed for the thorn in his flesh to be removed three times, whatever it may have been, but was denied. Guess you have more faith than Job, who was obedient and faithful to God his whole life, but suffered one catastrophe after another. The Job story is in the Bible not as some special case…it’s there to teach about difficult matters of life and faith for all who come to it.

Your faith paradigm seems to be a retributive view of God and the spiritual life. Just how Job and his friends viewed God. If you do all the right things, God will reward and protect you, and if you don’t, you’ll suffer. It sounds almost like prosperity gospel stuff. While that seems to work in Proverbs, it doesn’t in Job. Nor does it often in real life or faith. It’s why the psalmist questions why the wicked prosper, and the righteous suffer…in all kinds of ways…health, materially, etc. He recognized that faith and faithfulness do not always add up to good outcomes in this life, and vice versa.

Job, through his misfortunes, had his mind changed. He realized that he didn’t understand how God worked, and that his previous paradigm was an insufficient view of God. And, God never gave him any answers, as well. This means that the life of faith is sometimes living with unanswered questions, with things that don’t add up (such as why do bad things happen to good and faithful people), and living in shades of grey…not in black and white. It is why Paul said that now, in this present age, we see through a glass only dimly.

I hope you never get sick…but if you ever face catastrophic illness, it may cause you to revise your outlook on some pretty crucial matters of life and faith in God.



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