The state has spoken - - - by compulsory vaccination smallpox is gone. By compulsory adding of Iodine to the salt used for food (here in Austria) the endemic struma has vanished - - I in 1948 - with SDA parents as concsientious objectors - have gotten my smallpox vaccination - for travelling to the US at last with the age of ten - -
Me and my family of sons and grandsons - have full COVID vaccination. I know the risks and do not expect a perfect vaccination in the very short time for develping the vaccine. - - This out of a responsibiloity to my / our environment - in spite of my / our risks - -
And when the state says “Go to church on Sunday.”-which EGW and TW assure us will happen any day now-you will dutifully accept the MOB and give up your 7th Day Sabbath nonsense in the interest of the common good.
@NY-GPA2 Sorry, that is “shining nonsense” ! My trainees in the hospital by me were adviced to respect the “Laws” - - and to have their own conviction to act so or so - - NOT in every case them and their regualtions, when it goes against their personal conviction - - only knowing the consequences - -
I obey to these laws - it is ridiculous - for example - not to follow the ceremony about washing the hands before doing surgery. To follow the laws about confidential matters - oh boy, maybe a word to the disturbed husband on the corridor of the ward I should say in spite of - - -
see, in Germany on the Autogbahn you can speede as your car give sthe power - - - In the US I would be very careful about my speed nd - stopped by a patrol - never would get out (politely, as here
in my country) - else my life would untimely be ended - - - - Freedom ??
Please do not in case of any order by the govenrment come with the “Sunday Laws” - a matter to come, not in any way relevant in the sitution of pandemy now - - Please read about the “Rebellious” - also mentioned in the Bible - - there some SDAs are eager to demonstrate their aggresions - - -
-No,Bruce Cements, My parents have saved and supported the Deutsch and Hirsch family (Jews !) . The have shared their table with the forced laborers Kourik and Krupica and Petersen , they have helped the “Luftwaffe” private from Mainz, Germany to desert into their house , when the SS still was right around the corner and the Red Army coming down from the woods (both with their finger on the trigger of their automatic guns) - - I never was in school on Sabbath - - and now you want to tell me about how to face some laws to come - - - ??
And this is gaslighting.
As to your family’s history of bravery and resistance in the face of state pressure, I would only repeat what they say in all the investment advertisements; past performance is no indication of future results.
Thank you for posting these studies. I have now had the chance to review the first paper you shared which is looking at Covid-19 deaths in England and Wales. The topic of my essay was the difference in vaccination rates among people of different religions which showed that Christians were less vaccinated. You then wrote, “Research has shown that the death rate was higher among religious vs non-religious.” I assumed that you meant that Christians died at a higher rate than non-religious because it had something to do with the fact that they were vaccinated less. So I read the research paper you provided with great interest as I had not heard that association before. Unfortunately, the paper you provided first (released in July 2020) does not support such an association. The research was only about deaths by religious groups long before there was any vaccination. Specifically it dealt with deaths from March 2 to May 15, 2020. Thus, the paper has nothing to say about vaccination rates whatsoever since there were no vaccinations at that time.
The research does, however, report that the relative risk of death for non-religious (after many adjustments for all groups, including age) was about 83% of the Christian risk. On the other hand, the Muslim risk was more than 2 times that of the Christian while the Jewish risk was 2 times and Hindu was slightly less than 2 times. The authors point out some problems with data in their study because they used data from the 2011 census for all of the various factors they considered, including religion. In other words, they had no data about the various factors at the time of death, but they used self-reported data from 9 years earlier. In any case, the results are provocative and the authors do not propose definitive reasons for these differences, except to point to the data limitations mentioned.
Again, thank you for pointing to this research and its curious results before there were any vaccinations.
Just to be clear, the title does not say “American” Christians because this was a world-wide feature in the study of 90 countries covering more than 85% of the world’s population. Thus, the research was NOT about American Christians in particular, nor were the results (according to the authors).
Although research data does not specifically separate religious vs non-religious, we can make some assumptions based on the large amount of anti-vax research that is has been reported. If the religious persons are being honest in their reporting, as a group, they are most likely fall into the un-vaccinated groupings of any research.
I recognize that your paper was about the ‘why’, not the results of the decision. My comments were to suggest that religious reasonings are not always the best and sometimes detrimental to self and others.
Well, then I stand corrected, thanks. I suppose countries like Brazil (to use an example) also suffered from this covid phobia, from what I read (again, due to the high percentage of ultra conservative Christians).
COVID vaccines are mRNA vaccines, which are vaccines.
My uncle’s bother wasn’t afraid either, until he died of COVID. Your level of fear doesn’t determine your level of risk.
Even at our age (I’m 68) the odds of surviving COVID exceed 95%.
Throw caution to the wind and act as if the virus doesn’t exist?
Cower cowardly in a closet until they can administer another booster?
I’m not big into “proof texting” but from what I’ve read, to call oneself a Christian and live in fear means a person has skipped over some of the most important and comforting texts in the Bible.
@NY_G_PA2 Bruce Clements , you are in one way right. But sorry to say, the challenge now around COVID is not to be met with the families traditions against the “Government” and some “Laws” - -
It simply is not correct to mix the reponsibility of “caring” with conscientious objection and freeedom and not obeying - - -and we here did not handle out of anxiety.
When I carefully turn the key to my front door when leaving, I just am aware of burglars and of my insurances arguments of having or not having “properly cared” - - -
Please keep off with the “Gaslighting” argumen - - -
I do think your argument is a sorrowful, even unchristian, one.
But I shouldn’t have tried to deprive you of your right to live in fear.
So go with god and the governments as are supposedly ordained by him, and no matter what Jesus is said to have said about being like a lily in the field.
@NY_G-_PA2 Bruce Clemens, didnt you plan the purchase of warm clothing for next fall ? No budget for the time to retire ? And the costs for being delivered to the ER of the next hospital ?
See, ther is an SDA congress in Kassel, Gremany , in Novermber. Well, I alredy have my railroad ticket , especilly low prince when paid now - - and I have my additional insurance for this travel - should I be an ER - case in Kassel - this is covered by my ccompulsory Social Security - but the special insurance I added pays the immediate ambulance flight to a Hopital right here around the corner of my home ( I am 85 now !) - - -
No SIr, this is not anxiety - it is just calculating with whaht by all reson could happen - - -
Do you really want an answer to these questions?
I’m not convinced you do.
In fact, I think you’re being disingenuous, don’t care about me or my answers and only want to argue.
I think you make a good point. As I read though some of the comments in this whole conversation we have and idea of true observable science and Scientism. As you mentioned the data that had been released by pfizer that has been analysed no by over 3000 doctors and scientist, it paints a picture that they knew already that we are now seeing among the population with all the health problems. Confirming those who were cautious were right. Further we also need look at the issue follow the money then you know the agenda. The deeper one looks into true science the more the truth stands out. Then also the more you can connect the dots. I believe God gave us all these stories from the Bible to protect us. We can say that we have a wonderful loving God.
@NY_G_ PA2 Bruce Clements, you came with the argument of the Lilies ! After also displaying a prediction of those not follwing you for failing the test of the “Remnant” - when the **Sunday laws will be proclaimed - - -
You see, we in my Sabbathschool also deals with the problems of care, planing, responsibility, seeing future problems, - - -yes, and the “proof text method” .
Simply you meant that a preventive action - as vaccinating with an in a hurry developed vaccine - is an apostasy to the “Word of God” - - and those exaggerating their “rebellion” are the faithful ones - - -
- The problem of science is and was always to - fail . - How many more would have been “casualities” in WW II if you had applied your prejudice to peniciline, the treatment now hurried through developing and then rushed to the battlefields ? ( I nowadays never apply penicilline and the derivates ! Too many side effects, too much resistance )
Only those fully seeing their help there in sience now are diappointed - but those with the “true science” simply now are NOT justified - -
AND PELASE QUIT SUPPOSING FEAR ON ME ! THT SIMPLY IS THE UTMOST NONSENSE !
How does being unvaccinated and insisting on holding public meetings, i.e. church, follow the Golden Rule? And why does the Adventist church operate a medical school that strongly recommended vaccination if you think you know better.
I’m 75 years old, vaccinated, boostered twice, and very thankful that I never got Covid!! To me, being unafraid would mean I didn’t care about the good of OTHERS!
It is nonsense to say you believe in proof texting but then insist that it is nonsense when someone quotes texts you’d rather ignore.
@NY_G_PA2 Bruce Clemens, I do NOT ( ! !) believe in the “proof text” exegesis.
And we in my SDA church with great interest and personal committment rather frequetly discuss our attitude towards plans and concepts and securities to be met in our personal environment - a business man also has to look forward to new invetsments and their chances for profit - -(for example). - in spite of the insecurities given by the Ukraine war.
We respect the teachings given by Jesus himself in Luke 12 : 16 - 21. And we limit our interest in insurances and bank accounts - but we try to practize a good stewardship for our families, our church, our environment in the framework of our responsibilities - - and possibilities - - and limited sight.
By the way : It simply is not just to now quote studies of questionable results of the vaccines - afterwards. And now boast the cautiousness of some - - -The time of development on the one side and the urgent request for some help simply did not allow follow up studies. Maybe the “Firefighters” at first turned their hoses on the false focus ? And we, the neighbors, now claim to having kown better - -
It seems you’ve contradicted yourself here….
(BTW, as a child my father nearly died from an allergic reaction to penicillin so hopefully you can show a little compassion and excuse my desire to exercise caution with experimental medications given that science tells me I may have inherited some of his genetic traits.)