Why the Church Has To Stop Saying Sexual Sin Is the Most Important Thing


(Bryan Ness) #438

If I do it enough I will have a paper ready for the next issue of Spectrum. :wink:


(Kim Green) #439

Brian, you have done a more than a masterful job in trying to explain why it is best to apply the principles that Jesus taught on this whole LGBT issue. I don’t believe that you could have done a better job responding civilly in the past few days.

I think that it all comes down to whether or not you want to see “them” as children of God and treat them as such or you want to just condemn the “sin” and go no further then that. I would venture to say that most of the commenters that are strong on the “Hate the sin” part have little, or no, real life experiences such as you have with students. This, I believe, is the crucial part- when you have to deal in a loving and Christian manner with those who are hurting, confused and/or afraid. It is easy to just quote the Bible and go on your merry way…much more difficult to deal with a fellow human being.


(Bryan Ness) #440

Whoa, congratulations are in order. :thumbsup: :clap: :laughing:


(Bryan Ness) #441

Thank you. It should be said that it is a small minority of students that have to deal with this kind of stuff. I would wager that a good half of these students are under the radar enough that their own family and pastor does not know. Students like that are especially fearful and most prone to suicide. We have to treat these young people gently. Some have been condemning themselves for years, they don’t need our help to convince them they are bad. The often already believe they are.


(George Tichy) #442

Yeah, congratulations TO YOU! Only a few people made me read something that long… But it was worth it, believe me.
(But this was your quota for the whole month of August… :laughing:)


(Kim Green) #443

I always say that what is best is to strengthen their relationship with God- in whatever way we can. It is the most important thing that anyone can do for themselves or for others. I am in the process of starting a “Christian retreat” that is going to be very LBGT friendly. We will be emphasizing the spiritual growth of the person and I do hope that I see some of those college student there in the future.


(Bryan Ness) #444

I hope you will too, if I can help hold them together and prevent the church from shunning them.


(Kim Green) #445

I know…there should be so many more resources to help them! What I want to do should be ready for some of them in a year or so. Hopefully you can continue to encourage and support them as you have been doing.

Could you give me some advice as how to connect with these students? I know some of them could be on Kinship but certainly not all. If you would prefer answering by email: cincerity@sbcglobal.net. Thank-you.


(Gill Bahnsen) #446

Time after time on this and other forums I have observed that,

“Those convinced against their will
are of the same opinion still.”

And that is assuming they were even convinced to any extent in the first place…

I get the feeling that those who are most strident in their posts here are only broadcasting their views. I see very little effort being made towards “seeking first to understand” or even some plain old empathic listening from these same folk. There is not much by way of conversation to be found, really, when that approach is taken.


(Bryan Ness) #447

That is the best place to connect. I have to maintain confidentiality, and I usually point them to Kinship for resources. I would try to get word out through Kinship that you have an LGBT friendly program.


(Elaine Nelson) #448

It is so sad that the world accepts homosexuals and treats them no differently. But the church which should be a safe haven is the most condemning and unwelcome of all places where sanctuary from the rejection should be found. The church has utterly failed in its claim to be a safe place. That is not the attitude that Jesus demonstrated but the Pharaisees. For shame! And the church leaders wonder why the young people are not staying.


(Andrew) #449

Tongkam,

I am pleased for you that the Holy Spirit makes your discernment so clear but from my perspective knowing that all scripture is inspired doesn’t advance my understanding much further.

If you can do all that without your own thoughts or opinions being involved, you could be close to prophet status.

It’s been 100 years or so now hasn’t it? I think it’s about time we had another prophet and in the interests of diversity and recent votes, I think a male would be in order. I am assuming you are male, just a hunch.


(Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13) #450

Thank you for being a beacon of thoughtfulness & compassion.


(Kim Green) #451

Completely understand. I have made mention on Kinship of what I am planning to do and they were very supportive.


(Tim Teichman) #452

How do you know? There are many, many female pastors around the world. I think they feel a calling from God and that it is real.

Women can do whatever they want to do.

The statements about how a wife should behave are cultural. The statements about what makes a good leader cultural, and we don’t follow them. On reading, most of Timothy gives advice that is clearly cultural and appropriate for their situation at the time.

Except for 1 Timothy 5:23, which I do think is timeless. My stomach is a little upset:
“Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.”

We’ve been ignoring 1 Timothy 4:
1 “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.”

So, we SDA’s got this one wrong! Paul clearly states here (and elsewhere) that all foods are allowed and are good, because they are created by God. This passage teaches us that we are going against the word of God by listening to those who teach otherwise and that their message come from spirits and demons, and they are hypocritical liars. Anyone who teaches that Christians should abstain from certain foods is speaking for demons and spirits. This is very clear.


(Tongkam) #453

I know that God doesn’t lie, and He doesn’t contradict Himself. That’s how I know.

That is as it should be.

Certainly, they are called by God to serve Him. But if they feel they are called to the ordained ministry in the sacred desk, they are mistaken, for God has not given them any such direction, nor calling, as would go against His will as revealed in the Bible. First Timothy 3 is amply clear as to whom is qualified and eligible for eldership in the church.

Certainly they can, and many do. But doing what one wants does not equate to doing what God wants.

To try to “spiritualize away” the meaning of the Bible by attributing it all to “culture” is a very perilous position to hold. If culture dictates morality and the laws of God, or even their application, we are done for.


(Kim Green) #454

Where do you get these antiquated quotes…what does “sacred desk” even mean???

Culture has been far stronger on the Adventist church than the Adventist church has ever been on society. So…I guess you are done for :wink:


(Tim Teichman) #457

You must have a different bible than the rest of us. God changes is mind on many occasions and many inspired books of the bible disagree with each other.

That is your opinion, but it is not shared by most of us or by the official church statements on the topic.

1 Timothy 3 lists all kinds of properties that a church leader should have. We do not follow it in our church.

Here is the text I think you are referring to:
1 Timothy 3:1 “The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of bishop (“episkopos”), he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.”

I have met plenty of pastors who do not fit this list or attributes: They are not all above reproach, some have been married more than once, some do not think clearly, at least one I know is mentally ill, some do not have self control, some are not respectable, some are horrible teachers, one was actually a drunk, one beat his wife, many pick fights to get their way, and I personally know one that is in it for the money. Pastor’s kids are commonly out of control. Most aren’t interested what outsiders think of them, as they have little contact with outsiders. Yet we tolerate failures in all of these cases, though probably not all in the same person.

Is it the one little phrase, “the husband of one wife”, that you’re latching on to? If so, that seems a minor point, and may have been a response to an assumption that pastors where Timothy was working were men, but not a restriction saying pastors had to be men for all time, in all cultures. This was a letter written from one Apostle to another.


(Tongkam) #459

Do you choose not to believe God when He says He does not lie? (See Numbers 23:19.) The Bible does not disagree with itself on any doctrinal matter. There are minor details here and there which may appear to differ–some may be scribal errors that have entered into the text over the course of generations of copying it by hand. They are not important for salvation, and not worth haggling over. In all points of significance, there is perfect unity and cohesion among the various books and authors of the Bible.

Maybe that’s why Mrs. White tells us we should adhere to it more closely. Perhaps the modern “sexual revolution” and “liberation,” including the feminist movement, have their basis in the fact that we have not followed the Bible as we should.


(Andrew) #463

Tongkam,

I am curious as to which part of the world you call home?

Do you seriously think that the world would be a better place without some sort of feminist movement and that it wouldn’t have occurred if we were all following the Bible better?

Praise be to God for allowing it. You believe he is in control don’t you or is that only the outcomes you agree with?

If only we had kept all those women under the thumb of their men folk, the world would be such a better place.

If only James White had have dragged Ellen back into the house when she kept opening her big mouth in church, perhaps you would now be a happy and less legalistic Methodist.