Why the Church Has To Stop Saying Sexual Sin Is the Most Important Thing


(Bryan Ness) #536

So, it is an arbitrary command, thou shalt not commit homosexual acts? Just as I have been saying, there is no rational reason to prohibit it, except that it is not “according to nature.” You can say that it is not a ritual purity issue, but sins against nature, that cause no physical or psychological damage to the person or those around him are based simply on what we “feel” is too disgusting to allow. The problem is, if I don’t share your particular sense of disgust, or feel that I can overlook it, what are you then left with as a reason for prohibiting it?

Arbitrary rules, even if Biblically based, because ultimately, no rule is arbitrary. All rules have a reason, and sometimes what is a good reason at one time is not a good reason at another time. Rules that are based on disgust and purity sensibilities are just those kinds of rules. They change as the culture changes, and that is not a bad thing.

You can quote all the texts you want about homosexuality, but you will find when you dig more deeply into these texts and their cultural meaning, none of them applies to homosexuality in a healthy, monogamous marriage. How could they, since no such institution existed? I know change is hard, but people’s lives and happiness are at stake. We dare not turn those away from the kingdom that want so badly to be there, and who are no more sinners in God’s sight than you or I.


(Elmer Cupino) #537

This is one of many examples of derivatives of childhood threats from parents “Wait 'til the police come and get you” or “Wait 'til your dad comes home” or in the playground “My dad is bigger than your dad and wait 'til he beats your dad” that were never resolved and took a life of its own instead. These are normally resolved as one moves from one developmental phase to another, unless one gets fixated by trauma or enormous unbearable stressors.


(k_Lutz) #538

At some point the magical thinking kicks in, then all bets are off. Well, I suppose forty days in the wilderness, where non can chide one for finding out how life really works, may straighten things out a bit.

Trust The Process.


(Elaine Nelson) #539

Who are you fooling? If you “don’t like it” no one is forcing you to condemn, so simply be quiet and let people condemn themselves if they feel they are sinning. Who are you to judge? When did the Great Judge made you His emissary?


(Elaine Nelson) #540

I prefer what Pope Francis said recently: we should not be so harsh on divorced individuals but welcome them. How’s that for the dreadful mark of the beast being more gracious than the SdA church? As well as homosexuals when he said: “Who am I to judge?” If we believe that God will judge us all, why try to preempt that work when God is so much more knowledgeable about each of us?


(Elaine Nelson) #541

If seminary students are still taught that the Levitical purity codes apply to Christians, it indicates that teaching the NT is not taught as it should be.

We Christians are not living by the Deuteronomic codes contained in the Torah as the NT writers make clear. Jesus was addressing Jews who were still living by those codes, but not Christians for whom were living under the New Covenant that had no long lists purity laws. Is this part of the Gospel you are teaching? How do you ignore the NT that is most specific that these laws no longer apply to Christians?


(Bryan Ness) #542

Of late, Pope Francis has been putting us to shame. The man appears to be a REAL Christian. I thought that wasn’t possible if you are a Catholic. :wink:


(Tim Teichman) #543

Well put. I’d guess he wants to change much more than he has, but is wise enough to make his changes slowly.


(Allen Shepherd) #544

Arbitrary? Are any of God’s commands arbitrary? Gay sex is unhealthy. They, especially gay men, live truncated lives because of this behavior.

Think about this; Is the Adventist prohibition of alcohol arbitrary? Some might say so. Studies have shown that there are benefits to drinking a small amount of alcohol, a glass or two a day, especially red wine. There are healthful things in it. So, why complete abstinence? For at least two reasons: 1. To remain clear minded during these end times. 2. Because 1 in 7 who takes up the cup will become an alcoholic.

The same sort of reasonomg can be used to prohibit homosexual behavior. Some may even have stable relationships, but overall it is destructive. Besides, some gays say a monogamous gay relationship does not exist, and the instability and disease prevalent make it much riskier than a bit of wine. The prohibition is not arbitrary.

If you want to speak of arbitrariness, the Sabbath is most arbitrary. There is no celestial reason for it, and the seven day week is not founded on any biological rhythm. God just says to keep the Sabbath, and says it has to be the SEVENTH day. Why not just any day, and why 1 in 7? Couldn’t he be a bit more flexible about this? But keeping this day shows loyalty and love. So with the prohibition against gay sex, which you feel has not basis in nature.

Disgust: You keep brining this up when I have never used this as an argument against gay sex. I don’t think anal intercourse is particularly attractive, but some do. My feeling is not the issue, but what the Bible says.

Where did I say you or I were less sinners than they? But if they still excuse what God has forbidden, they are doing something you and I do not do, excuse sin.

I want to give a followup on Suzy and Joe. That night they had a real romp under the sheets. Joe said that you really did not have an answer, as gay sex, though an abomination, was allowed. Suzy felt a bit guilty, but after all, he was really handsome, and she really wanted to give herself to him. He eventually moved on, but she got PID, and was never able to have a child. After her divorce, she remained single for her whole life, becoming bitter at the hand dealt her. But she didn’t blame anyone at the school.


(Gerhard Dr Svrcek Seiler) #545

We are talking about sins and their
life destroying effect.

One young SDA - long ago - had his problems of dissapointments with dating and bonding - I do not know why six times or so it was rejection. (Nobody knew about this, in two cases I know the girl afterwards regretted it) - this handsome, well educated, cultivated , witty man lived with the painful depression making feeling : Girls just do not want me… Would he have heard the gossip - him being homosexual - going around in the Union - then he would have committed suicide.

One young family suffered after a third persons (SDA) fraudfull bankruptcy (one million, no church discipline, not even a discussion !)) - Not only his career, but also the shelter for his family and the ecnomical basis for his aging parents was at stake. One and a half decades of working at two jobs and finishing his University studies followed. . Constant fear : We - I - do not get it. The wife left him and the two children, he himself just came short of what he had planned in a broad field of education for his two boys, just being overworked - at least six life concepts were severely endangered and partly wrecked. - Dont talk abou money, you also need it.

Proverbs 14 : 42 - but sin is a reproach to any people.

What are the two fates - of many - I here dscribed against a girl getting pregnant untimely by her spouse to be and then judging : white wedding gown, maybe only yellow, apologizing to the congregation, no church wedding, just some blessing somewhere else - - - -.

Is Malachi 2 :: 16 something you are aware of, something you teach your kids ? Are you aware that Ex 22 : 16 and Deut 22 : 28, 29 speak of consequences, but not at all about sacrifices !


(Elmer Cupino) #546

Would you be kind to elaborate what in gay sex in unhealthy? What is it that they do that heterosexual couples do not do that is unhealthy?

Most individuals engage in alcoholic beverages for the purpose of running away from remaining clear minded. Most of these individuals have failed to develop appropriate coping skills because of biological abnormalities, weak parenting, parental discord, victim of physical, sexual and emotional abuse in addition to having excessive strict religious or moral prohibitions. What drives them to become alcoholic is not the alcohol but their personal and character deficiencies.

The most common cause of destructive relationship is entering into a relationship, be it heterosexual or homosexual relationship.

The other side of the coin is she now does not have to deal with a relationship that could be destructive. Very insightful for her to not blame the “default person,” the devil.


(Elaine Nelson) #547

So many fallacies: Monogamous, married gays are no more prone to “unhealthy” lives than monogamous heterosexuals. Statements without evidence are worthless. Give us the statistics and not opinions. You cite one story. Anecdotal accounts are singular and physicians never use them as evidence.

Yes, the Adventist prohibition of alcohol is extremely arbitrary. There is not a single Bible text supporting that; in fact there are many Bible texts extolling the moderate use of alcohol, even “for the stomach’s sake” which are conveniently ignored by Tee-teetotalers. Making false statements that cannot be biblically supported should not come from those standing in the pulpit: false witnessing. In addition, it goes against the best medical evidence today to promote something that has been found to be beneficial. If Jesus miraculously made the “best wine” for the wedding party, Adventists would have refused to enjoy His miracle!

As for Sabbath observance: please give one NT text written for Christians that the Sabbath commandment given to the Israelites was ever given to Gentile Christians who are living under the New Covenant.


(Bryan Ness) #548

You really do like to flail about with arguments that have nothing to do with the premise, don’t you? This is an apples and oranges argument. The promiscuous gay lifestyle is rather unhealthy, sure, but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a monogamous relationship, so please stop bringing in irrelevant arguments. Promiscuous heterosexuals run the same risks and typically have less healthy lives than monogamous heterosexuals too.

Now we are talking about a whole different part of God’s law. Another apples and oranges case. The Sabbath is a long-standing covenental agreement between God and man. To some extent the day is irrelevant, but so what, one of the days of the week needed to be chosen, and I have agreed that the 7th day is the day to worship God together as a community. How long could I be a an SDA if I chose to worship on Sunday?

You surprise me. LOL I guess I just assumed, that as a heterosexual, the image of two males have sex would be just a wee bit disgusting. Sorry if I have misjudged you.

I keep mentioning the disgust aspect because that is what purity rules are based on. There is abundant evidence of this from psychological research, and gay sex is an extremely typical disgust trigger for heterosexuals, so much so, that some heterosexuals (we might call these individuals homophobes) feel a sense of physical revulsion just being in the same room with a gay person. Also, much of the language around excluding gays from fellowship involves contagion metaphors, as if just by being in our fellowship their “disease” will begin affecting other members, especially our children. If all of that is not disgust based, I am not sure how else to describe it.

You miss my point entirely, but then you often do.


(Tom Loop) #549

Watch it now, you are wandering after the beast. (Tongue in cheek)


(Andrew) #550

Explain what you mean by destructive in monogamous gay relationships. I understand what you said about drinking but you didn’t clarify what you meant with regard to homosexuality.


(Andrew) #551

This is an interesting line of reasoning. The physical reaction of disgust ; does it only apply to male homosexuality or lesbianism also?


(Tom Loop) #552

[quote=“ajshep, post:544, topic:9095”]
Disgust: You keep brining this up when I have never used this as an argument against gay sex. I don’t think anal intercourse is particularly attractive, but some do. My feeling is not the issue, but what the Bible says.

Allen, you will never see me making excuses for anal intercourse, whether it is man to man, or even man to woman. Where I believe you really come up short is that whenever the subject of homosexuals comes up you are prone to look at gays as a sex act rather than as people with hearts and souls and lover’s of Jesus. There is more to life than sex, and there is sex other than what you find disgusting.

I refused for over 6 years to read the book “Homosexuality and the Church: Some SDA perspectives.” and I am gay as I have come out here on Spectrum several years ago. I figured it was just some liberal spin of scripture. I was a silent attendee at the conference at Andrews University in 2009: “Homosexuality, Marriage and the Church” My personal testimony is in that book under a pen name Winston King. I have not updated that personal testimony since 2009, so that is where I was in life’s journey up to that point.

Too much to tell here, so I will only say you need to read that book, and do it as one looking for truth and not as one who is trying to find something to support what you think the Bible says. The Bible seems to say that the lost will burn in eternal torment forever, but as SDA’s we know that isn’t true. Think about and at least read that book, and also understand that I have personally had to deal with homosexuality in the crucibe of my own life an entire lifetime.

I sat next to Carrol Grady during a session of that conference and tried to engage a conversation with her, but was interupted and we never got a chance to say more than a couple sentences to each other. I had mixed feelings about that conference, and I was uncomfortable with many of the speakers. I met Wayne Blakeley, and I drove Inge Anderson and her husband from the airport in Chicago in a rental car I used to drive us to Andrews. I was aligned with Inge at that time, now to Inge’s dismay I am more in tune with Carol. But my life journey, prayer and continued Bible study moves forward and I am taking one day at a time.

My appeal is not to shut people up who disagree with where I have traveled on these blogs the past year on this subject, but the challenge them to grow out of theological orthodoxcy that chained me to wrong headeness for decades.
@carrolgrady, @Inge @kennlutz


(Bryan Ness) #553

Nope, and you are probably aware, sex itself has some inherent disgust in it. There’s a reason why it’s not considered okay to do it in public. And who of us can picture our parents having sex? We know they must have done it, since here we are, but ew, that’s gross. :wink:


(Andrew) #554

I just find it fascinating. I have often had conversations with mixed gender company (heterosexuals) , about the so called, yuck factor, of seeing two men versus two women kiss.

General consensus that the former is yuck, but not the latter.

So, I’m not really sure how the yuck factor should be a determinant of attitudes to lifestyle choices.

Like you say, you don’t want to think about your parents having sex, but that doesn’t mean I would ban it!


(Bryan Ness) #555

This is actually a pretty well-established dichotomy. Gay sex, yuck, lesbian sex, not so much (although sex being what it is, there is some degree of yuck here too). When it comes to disgust psychology, we are pretty odd creatures.