Why the Church Has To Stop Saying Sexual Sin Is the Most Important Thing


(Andrew) #556

Interesting, I wonder how these perceptions differ amongst the LGBT’s.

I wonder what drives our yuck factor perceptions. I can’t believe it is socialised into us.


(Bryan Ness) #557

It’s not just socialized, although that is a big part of it. There are some excellent books on the subject, one is the summer reading group book on Spectrum.


(Elaine Nelson) #558

Little children, first hearing about sex immediately say “gross.” Give them a few more years to see the very different change. But the Victorian setting in which Adventism and Puritanism was born had an aversion to all sex except procreation and was never confused with recreation. Some never outgrew their childish concepts, once said to be regarded by the Queen Victoria’s advice to prospective brides: “Just lie back and think of England.”


(Carrol Grady`) #559

I have heard that lesbian sex is a turn-on for men; not so, for women. But no idea why, except I’ve heard that men are more visually stimulated.


(Carrol Grady`) #560

I started out working with Inge but found her to be too judgmental, so had to go my separate way.


(Andrew) #561

I think that is true. Women, although, less offended by girl on girl kissing, are more neutral about it. Not so with men. They aye more positive about it.

Men are certainly (in my experience) more visually stimulated.


(Andrew) #562

Interestingly, I am visual (as a man), not not so, as the media presents and objectifies women.

The, so called, perfect woman does nothing for me.

It is weird, but most guys I know, don’t buy into the media portrayal of women.


(Allen Shepherd) #563

I would answer your post after this one, but I think this summarizes your position.

The Bible does not give a caveat re homosexual behavior. Just the act itself is forbidden. You think you have figured out, by carful reasoning, a type of behavior that is not covered by scripture. How could that be when the act itself is forbidden?

If I can quote all the scripture I want and it makes no difference, than you are basing your view on your own opinion of what is reasonable. You are thus a true renascence man putting reason above ancient outmoded texts. That is your right, but probably not such a good position to take in a school run by those who hold the opposite view. But your administration allows, so, as I said, you are free.

I would say one last thing: Your quoting of Matt 9:12 where Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for eating with “sinners”. He says that it is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. And then he says, “But go and learn what this means, (quoting Hosea 6:9) ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice’. For I have not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

But if it is the sick that need a doctor, do not the sick seek to be made well, rather then remain in their sickness? Do not sinners desire to be healed of sin?

But you heal the wounds the sick lightly, saying they really aren’t sick. I don’t see that as mercy at all.


(Allen Shepherd) #564

Elaine,

You need to read more of Ellen to get her real opinion. It was not so prudish as you think.


(Allen Shepherd) #565

Your post is addressed to me so I will answer.

I have respected you since you first posted here, though I disagree with the way your thinking has developed. You are more critical of the church than at first. The church is not perfect, but this is a difficult subject, and was hard for most folk to understand as the gay movement was pretty much in the closet at the time. I think you have to give it a bit of slack on the matter, though Ellen even dealt with the issue in a private way. I am not very well acquainted with either lady except as Carol has commented here. the other does not comment.

I have the book, and have read portions of it. But I will read your essay, and perhaps comment.


(Bryan Ness) #566

You are making an assumption here. Are sexual relations between a man and a woman forbidden? Yes, in certain contexts. It is not the act itself, but the context that makes it right or wrong. Having sexual relations is just a physical interaction, and as such, physical interactions between consenting individuals are fine, as long as no harm is being done.

You also seem to be so caught up in the sexual act itself that you missing 90% of the point. Two gay en are not attracted to one another because the just want to have sex. They are attracted to one another in the same mysterious way that a man and woman are attracted to one another. Are men and women attracted to one another just because they want to have sex? That is certainly in the mix, but it cheapens the kind of relationship that develops between a man and woman if all that is seen about it is the sex act.

So, is it wrong for two men to fall in love? And if they fall in love, what they choose to do in their own bedroom should be none of your business. Gays and lesbians really get tired of everyone being hung up about their sex lives. That is so little of what being gay or lesbian is. It’s not like they are sex crazed individuals compared to heterosexual couples.

Incidentally, you still have never given me a reason why same-sex marriage is wrong. You really need to think more deeply about this. Don’t let your judgmental attitude and your need to see yourself as right cloud your thinking. God does not want us just to proof text ourselves to heaven. He gave us brains to use, and you are faulting me for using mine.

Apparently you are missing the subtle jab Jesus is giving here. What He is really saying is that the people He is eating dinner with are less sick than the Pharisees. Go and learn what this means. The prostitutes and tax collectors didn’t need so much a doctor, as they needed a friend to welcome them into God’s kingdom. Remember, Jesus said in another place that prostitutes and sinners would enter Heaven before the Jewish leaders, and He did not specify they had to clean themselves up first.

By the way, you know why He didn’t specify they had to clean themselves up first? Because by meeting Jesus they already started the process. Go and learn what this means.


(Bryan Ness) #567

You mean, like the amount of slack you give gays and lesbians? :confused:


(Elaine Nelson) #568

Strippers and pole dancing are nearly always attended by men. Some men also enjoy lesbians performing as a “turn on.”


(Elaine Nelson) #569

Could be that part is what is so often quoted. Yes, I’ve read “Appeal to Mothers” and her writings on vitality that is a minimum at birth and once expended, it’s curtains. My stomach is unable to read her. :confounded:


(Marc Alan Schelske) #570

Glad to hear that is happening!


(Tom Loop) #571

That is true, because I now see that the church has been a major stumbling block for me, for stubborningly refusing to listen to the life stories of anyone other than the ones they want to listen to. Wayne Blakeley and I were basically on the same page at the conference on homosexuality held at Andrews in 2009. But we have gone in opposite directions since then. I don’t judge him and I would appreciate the same from those who think his “ex-gay” ideas are right on.


(Elmer Cupino) #572

An act is always the result of a thought, be it conscious or unconscious. To allow one and not the other is a formidable task that renders anyone to mental illness, the ultimate example being schizophrenia which is characterized by splitting of thought, emotion and behavior. How can God allow an individual to be born with biological drives then “forbid” him from discharging? An analogy would be to forbid eating when hunger sets in. Only a schizophrenic god would do such a thing like this. I refuse to see my God as schizophrenic therefore I must reject your premise.


(Allen Shepherd) #573

If gay sex is wrong, how can gay marriage be right?

Ah, yes, my judgmental attitude and need to see myself as right. I embrace my desire to be right. I think you embrace such a desire yourself, having demonstrated it here on multiple occasions.

You clearly use your brain, I just disagree with the conclusions you come to. Your position undermines scripture as I have shown by the silly stories of Suzy and Joe. I think undermining scripture is a serious matter.

Proof texting to heaven? Do you think I believe that one’s position on homosexuality is a means of getting to heaven? Where have I said that? You say I am judgmental, yet you are quick to judge me. I think espousing error can lead to the loss of heaven, but that many who do not keep Sabbath, don’t tithe, or hold a different view on homosexuality will be there. I am not the final judge, by any means. But God calls us to be careful about whether we add or subtract from scripture. I try to be that way.


(Bryan Ness) #574

Where have I judged you? I have simply commented on your views and pointed out where they differ from mine. I have also mentioned you were judgmental, based on what you have written, which is rather self-apparent from what you have written. I have even given you the benefit of the doubt concerning your motives in judging homosexuality so harshly.

You said it, they were silly stories. :wink:

No adding or subtracting on my part, unless we are doing it equally. You would add a prohibition to same-sex marriage, and I would add an exception to homosexual acts, as long as they are in marriage. I’d say we’re pretty evenly guilty on that one.

And you are right, God will be the final judge, so why don’t we allow that and just accept LGBT individuals into the church, as long as they are willing to follow the same moral guidelines as the rest of us? We need not judge them, God is perfectly capable, and I very much doubt that God would hold us accountable for showing such mercy.


(Elaine Nelson) #575

All heterosex is not wrong but only if not married. All homosexual sex is not wrong if in marriage How can sex be wrong two hours before marriage, but perfectly normal two hours after being legally married?

Homosexual partners who take the same vows 'till death departs should not be forced by arbitrary church rules to remain celibate for life. We know that Paul said it was unnatural to “burn” with lust; and we know how well that has worked for more than 1000 years with the Catholic priests. Why impose it upon people today when it has never worked in all of history? Celibacy is unnatural, even more so than what has been described as “Unnatural sex” as if only certain forms of activity are natural. Do you have a list for your parishoners who ask about proper “natural sexual relations”? What are your references?