Women’s Ordination: The Truth about the Real Position of the 13 Divisions in the Seventh-day Adventist Church

(Steve Mga) #46

Ian –
The ONLY ballots necessary are the Ballots in EACH UNION OFFICE.
NOT at Silver Springs.
NOT EVEN in ANY Division Office.
It is all a Union Decision. None else.

The Only Action a Division can do is this – Encourage Unions to discontinue
discrimination against men AND women.

(Carlo Schroeder) #47

I am quite sure that is true, but in other countries that is not normal practice, and that is especially the case if the women is married, then she is almost punished for being married, and that is so unfair, because in many cases the women is the bread winner in the home.
This mentality originates from male headship theology, and mixed with Roman Catholic culture is a dangerous cocktail for abuse and exploitation.
I will give you an example. A few years ago, there was an accountant who worked at the publishing, he wrote a check one day and gave it to the cashier who registered the transaction, the cheque was signed hence she done her job, that is, ask no questions and do what one is told. The next month day morning she was called to the union office and asked who authorized the cheque and why did she not inform the union. She was fired for being incompetent, because the accountant wrote himself a big cheque and resigned. A few days later the same accountant is found working at an Adventist University, nothing is done to him. He keeps the money, and his pension is maintained.

(Carlo Schroeder) #48

I might upset some women, but in my part of the woods, ordination must be done away with, because that is the wall that separates a pastor and normal church worker in becoming president of a conference or union. Because the pastor’s here are just not competent in being leaders, and understanding the laws of the country. They assume that they are above the law, hence keep on forcing the accountants to break the law so that they can pay less taxes.
I am implying that this is a big problem here.

(Red Livingstone) #49

That has been my question. The ambiguity seems intentional.

(Steve Mga) #50

A SINISTER Play on Words.
That is what the proposal at SA2015 was.
A SINISTER Play on Words for those unfamiliar with the English sentence construction.

And apparently MANY American SDAs also have difficulty with “a play on words.”

(George Tichy) #51

Exactly! On the fence…
In my opinion, Unions should only make a public statement on the issue of WO IF they are really serious about it. It’s easy to make a statement of support, but the only way to show seriousness about it is with ACTION.

It’s actually better for the Unions if they first take some real action and then make a statement. Otherwise their statement may be viewed as mere manipulation of the public opinion.

(George Tichy) #52

Steve, the main challenge for the Unions now is to assure that they will not allow the GC guys (the Kompliance Komandos) to invade their precincts. They have no business policing the Unions.


I feel there are some challenges that are present in with the representative form of government. I am a pastor in the Southern Africa Indian Ocean Division and feel ashamed every time the issue is discussed because the views of my leaders are very different from my own. I strongly feel that women should be ordained to gospel ministry. I have many colleagues who feel the same way. In fact as a pastor all the congregations that I have pastored have more women than men and I struggle to believe that the view that is held by the leaders of the SID is representative of the members in the territory.

(Joselito Coo) #54

So, granted the preamble (Scriptural, Ellen White relevance to WO, park safety) was not addressed directly insofar as it wasn’t put before the session for a vote, yes or no. Instead, the motion was solely with regard to authorizing division executive committees - Edward’s uncle? - allowing or prohibiting WO within their respective territorial jurisdiction. Yes or No?

Evidently, to some people, either way the votes went really didn’t matter. As far as they are concerned, nothing changed because union conferences - Edward’s parents - are still the lawful guardians of women and men’s ordination.

Enough of legal experts opinions. Scribes. For clarity’s sake and transparency, I suggest a layperson-sitting-in-the-pew test.

(Peter Marks) #55

Thanks! You are correct to note the difference between the attitude of the NAD and that of the SPD.

Though all papers presented to the SPD BRC were written in favour of the ordination of women the SPD personnel have always seen virtue in waiting for a global determination of the matter.

However the fact that the TOSC materials were not given their full weight in the 2015 GC decision and that not every Division has approached the issue of WO from a level playing field has concerned many in the SPD. Therefore, the recent 2018 SPD Year End meeting requested the GC reconsider the various Division BRC Reports from November 2013.

Grassroots education concerning the nature of ordination is what the ECD and the TED have called for particularly in their long reports to TOSC. The ECD had said that to do otherwise would be counterproductive if a GC vote were taken. And this has proved prophetic.

This is where I really appreciate your translation efforts, Ed. It is a small but much needed beginning to the grassroots education effort.

I believe you need to speak Russian, Chinese, Tagalog, Hindi and Swahili as well as the other languages you listed.

(Steve Mga) #57

The problem with a “Lay Person-sitting-in-the-pew-test” is that
99.9% will be CLUELESS as to the issues we have discussed.
And will CHOOSE an answer based on HearSay.
In my church congregation HearSay is HEADSHIP. Not even
women Elders are Welcome.
And it might even entrench persons FURTHER into HEADSHIP
thinking at this time.
POSITIVE discussion of WO needs to come from the Union
Office through the Union Papers before one sees if the discussion
has changed any minds from Male HEADSHIP thinking.

And then, perhaps NOT EVERYONE is on the Union Paper
mailing list.

(Steve Mga) #58

By the Unions ASKING for the GC to VOTE on WO, they are
IN FACT transferring to the GC the Powers that they have TO
By changing their Constitution, By-Laws, or other Operative
rules-regulations to MATCH what the GC is Pushing, will IN
FACT hand over to the GC the powers that the Unions have at
this time.

We have a VERY Unfriendly General Conference GROUP of
Committees up there in Silver Springs.
Their Actions are BASED on Control and NOT the spreading of
the Gospel to ALL the World by any and all means possible.

(Joselito Coo) #59

In my analogy “Uncle” represents the GC Division Executive Committee. Union Conferences are the “Mom and Dad”.

Clueless, why? Where’s the transparency in our system of global church governance? Are laypeople who sit in the pews still being treated like immature, ignorant children by aged uncles, moms and dads?


Park safety out the window… What matters is Law. Policy. Governance. Regardless of the absence of a biblical/theological basis for ordination as practiced by SDAs.


This is certainly the message from the Mother Church in Washington: Law. Policy. Compliance. Dire Consequences.

Forget Fundamental Belief #14.
Forest the Priesthood of ALL Believers.
Forget conscience.
Forget the calling of the Holy Spirit.

Punish. Punish. Punish.

Remembering Hus, Tyndale, Zwingli. Stephen. Luther. Wycliffe.

When Law trumps Scripture.

Love one another and treat them as you would want to be treated: Jesus’s law.

(Steve Mga) #61

When it comes to Transparency to the Lay Person in the Pew.
NO! There is only minimal IF there is ANY information being filtering down to
that level of person, persons.
So, YES! They ARE Clueless, and WILL REMAIN Clueless. MAYBE they are
being told there are Rebellious groups and it is Imperative and CRITICAL that
something be done.
That is about it!

(Jeffrey Kent) #62

Outstanding article, Mr. (Dr.?) McField. I really appreciate the academic approach. I’ve saved a copy of your article for future reference. And I’ve petitioned God to enhance the influence of your effort.


I feel the exact same way, ashamed and highly disappointed in being in this division area. As a church employee I do not accept that the SID view is properly studied but far more influenced by many different elements, culture, prejudice, history and leaders dreading losing control.

(George Tichy) #64

The fact that the GC spent (wasted) over $1 mi on the TOSC only to dismiss its conclusion without even considering them - this is what is VERY concerning. Especially when the reason for such a rejecting maneuver was obviously the fact that the TOSC conclusions were not what Ted Wilson and his minions wanted/expected.

I can only imagine the frustration and be panic at the GC offices when they realized that the TOSC results were not what they needed and that they had paid for. Since they did not have much time left the best thing they could do was to throw away the TOSC results and create some artificial, fake question to be voted on to reach their initial goal - i.e., taking from the Unions the authority to make decisions on ordination.

The plan was obviously very smart, which was extending that the authority from the Unions to the Divisions - aka GC. However the people who voted apparently did not read the question correctly, or where actually confused by the Holy Spirit. Thus, they voted the opposite of what the GC needed.

The only thing we need now is very STRONG UNIONS to make sure that they will not be violated by the KGC Kompliance Kommandos. Those Unions that stand in favor of WO should show their determination by ordained women promptly. Those Unions that do not support WO should make clear statements about it.

Each Union should be respected in its decision.

(George Tichy) #65

LOL… I love the drawing.

The SECC pumps the oil from the well, but all other branches of the Church end up “doing well” too… Blessed well, uh?.. :sunglasses:

(George Tichy) #66

I am astonished seeing how many people are clueless even here in Southern California. I believe that the time for local churches to inform their members is past due!